Freethought & Rationalism Archive

lpetrich · 04-14-2004, 09:15 AM

An argument often made was that opponents of the early Xtians could have shut them up by showing Jesus Christ's dead body.

I've thought of that argument, and I've concluded that those early Xtians could have said:

"But it was his soul that got resurrected!"

I wonder how easy it might have been for them to make that argument?

Nectaris · 04-14-2004, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lpetrich

An argument often made was that opponents of the early Xtians could have shut them up by showing Jesus Christ's dead body.

I've thought of that argument, and I've concluded that those early Xtians could have said:

"But it was his soul that got resurrected!"

I wonder how easy it might have been for them to make that argument?

Was it really that much of a concern that anyone would want to go to that length to do such a thing? Did early Christians present that much of a threat to any established power, that someome would go out of his way to disprove their belief?

If such a thing occured (the production of Jesus' body), I could imagine someone using the spiritual resurrection argument, like you suggest, OR maybe a "that's not the real Jesus" response. I don't how long it was before Christianity became a somewhat popular religion, but I could imagine between the time that Jesus supposedly died and the time that Christianity had developed enough of a following for someone to care enough to disprove it, there wouldn't be much left of the body that would be identifiable without modern scientific resources. I could imagine the display:

Roman Soldier: These are the remains of your so-called saviour.
Christian: But it's just a heap of bones, that could be anyone.
Roman Soldier: It is Jesus, I assure you that I dug up the grave myself.
Christian: Why should I believe you? You have an biased interest in disproving the Jesus thing. . .

that sort of thing

Also, if Jesus never existed, there would be no body to present. I have no interest in starting a debate on whether he existed or not, though.

Dave

Amaleq13 · 04-14-2004, 11:18 AM

Given that, according to the Christian New Testament, the disciples didn't start publicly proclaiming his resurrection until well over a month after his death, producing a recognizable body to dispute the claim would have been impossible.

MortalWombat · 04-14-2004, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lpetrich

An argument often made was that opponents of the early Xtians could have shut them up by showing Jesus Christ's dead body.

The Millerites weren't shut up when William Miller's prophecy that Jesus would return in 1843, and again in 1844, didn't occur. The Jehovah's Witnesses (which was a splinter group of the Millerites originally) didn't seem to have been shut up when the world didn't end several times in the early 20th century after multiple such prophecies failed to come to pass. Believers in Nostradamus were not shut up after from the King of Terror from the sky was a no-show in the seventh month of 1999. And the Lubavitchers weren't shut up when Rabbi Schneerson died and turned out not to have been the messiah.

Needless to say, I'm not much impressed with claims that evidence presented to true believers would somehow have a negative effect on their faith.

Al Kafirun · 04-16-2004, 12:06 AM

Jesus could descend bodily and say 'quit it' and they'd still beat their breasts and bemoan the sins of everyone but themselves.

But this topic makes me think of the Toledoth Yeshu, my favorite anti-Christian tale.

Queen Helene demanded, on threat of a severe penalty, that the body of Yeshu be shown to her within a period of three days. There was a great distress. When the keeper of the garden saw Rabbi Tanhuma walking in the field and lamenting over the ultimatum of the Queen, the gardener related what he had done, in order that Yeshu's followers should not steal the body and then claim that he had ascended into heaven. The Sages removed the body, tied it to the tail of a horse and transported it to the Queen, with the words, "This is Yeshu who is said to have ascended to heaven." Realizing that Yeshu was a false prophet who enticed the people and led them astray, she mocked the followers but praised the Sages.

Matthew_Green · 04-30-2004, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lpetrich

An argument often made was that opponents of the early Xtians could have shut them up by showing Jesus Christ's dead body.

I've thought of that argument, and I've concluded that those early Xtians could have said:

"But it was his soul that got resurrected!"

I wonder how easy it might have been for them to make that argument?

I don't know how likely it would've been. After 50 days the body would've been decayed and impossible to identify. Also, it wouldn't have been in the best interests of the Church's enemies to produce the body. I agree with Jeff Lowder when he wrote:

Quote:

McDowell claims that the Romans and the Jews could not account for the empty tomb by producing the body or explaining where it went (1972, 226). Presumably, he thinks that if the Jewish or Roman authorities had produced the body, that would have stifled the resurrection message. However, as many authors (for example Martin, 91 and Bostock, 202-205) have pointed out, there are major flaws in this argument. First, this argument apparently never "occurred to Herod Antipas when he had cause to fear that John the Baptist had risen from the dead (Mt 14:2)." (Bostock, 204). Despite this objection however McDowell argues that the body could not have been removed by human means (because of the large stone, the Roman guard, etc.), and that this argument is a proof of the resurrection. I agree with Bolstock's refutation of this argument (Ibid.):

This argument however conveniently overlooks the fact that a production of the body would have involved the priestly party in taking serious the resurrection claims of the disciples, and with it the admission that they might have crucified God's Messiah. It would also have involved them in the admission that they had deliberately deceived Pontius Pilate, and that they were guilty of the heinous offence of despoiling a grave. Such a series of admissions would have been psychologically difficult and politically impossible. What is more there was no reason at all for them to produce the body until the time of Pentecost, when the disciples made the first public statement about the resurrection. By then, however, seven weeks had passed, and at that stage the corpse would not have been easily demonstrated to be the body of Jesus. The time-lag would have made the production of the body a futile exercise, even if its production could have proved anything of significance.

Second, as Michael Martin (89) proves, there is no evidence that the Jews or Romans were actively engaged in attempting to disprove the resurrection. "Now Jewish historians of the time, such as Josephus, do not even mention the Resurrection except in the clearly forged passage known as the Testimonium Flavium. This hardly suggests that Jewish leaders were actively engaged in attempting to refute the Resurrection story but failing in their efforts."

For these reasons I have to conclude that the enemies of Christ wouldn't have produced the body if they could've.

Matthew

Infidelettante · 04-30-2004, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lpetrich

An argument often made was that opponents of the early Xtians could have shut them up by showing Jesus Christ's dead body.

I've thought of that argument, and I've concluded that those early Xtians could have said:

"But it was his soul that got resurrected!"

I wonder how easy it might have been for them to make that argument?

But then some Gnostics made just that claim. An interesting read is Jesus And The Lost Goddess by Freke and Gandy from Three Rivers Press. They are the authors of The Jesus Mysteries which is also an interesting read.

JT

04-14-2004, 09:15 AM	#1
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	Showing Jesus Christ's Body? An argument often made was that opponents of the early Xtians could have shut them up by showing Jesus Christ's dead body. I've thought of that argument, and I've concluded that those early Xtians could have said: "But it was his soul that got resurrected!" I wonder how easy it might have been for them to make that argument?

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04-14-2004, 11:18 AM	#3
Amaleq13 Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Eagle River, Alaska Posts: 7,816	Given that, according to the Christian New Testament, the disciples didn't start publicly proclaiming his resurrection until well over a month after his death, producing a recognizable body to dispute the claim would have been impossible.

04-16-2004, 12:06 AM	#5
Al Kafirun Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: USA Posts: 323	Jesus could descend bodily and say 'quit it' and they'd still beat their breasts and bemoan the sins of everyone but themselves. But this topic makes me think of the Toledoth Yeshu, my favorite anti-Christian tale. Queen Helene demanded, on threat of a severe penalty, that the body of Yeshu be shown to her within a period of three days. There was a great distress. When the keeper of the garden saw Rabbi Tanhuma walking in the field and lamenting over the ultimatum of the Queen, the gardener related what he had done, in order that Yeshu's followers should not steal the body and then claim that he had ascended into heaven. The Sages removed the body, tied it to the tail of a horse and transported it to the Queen, with the words, "This is Yeshu who is said to have ascended to heaven." Realizing that Yeshu was a false prophet who enticed the people and led them astray, she mocked the followers but praised the Sages.

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