RogueBibleScholar

Hi all,

I was rereading my webpage on Christian editing in Josephus, and came to the conclusion that arguments about the passage on John the Baptist being a possible forgery I was making indeed do hinge on the translation of a phrase; which can be given a different translation which might invalidate the point. In the process of this review, the most interesting thing I came across is a very good refutation of the idea that Philip the tetrarch was the first husband of Herodias.

It hinges on the following recounting of the genealogies of the Herods in Josephus:

"But Herodias, their sister, was married to Herod [Philip], the son of Herod the Great, who was born of Mariamne, the daughter of Simon the high priest, who had a daughter, Salome; after whose birth Herodias took upon her to confound the laws of our country, and divorced herself from her husband while he was alive, and was married to Herod [Antipas], her husband's brother by the father's side, he was tetrarch of Galilee; but her daughter Salome was married to Philip, the son of Herod, and tetrarch of Trachonitis; and as he died childless, ..." (Antiq. 18.5.4)

I then made the following observations about this passage:

Let's see if we have this straight. Supposing Philip the tetrarch had been Herodias' first wife: Herodias had been originally married to Herod Philip, and had a daughter, Salome. After Salome's birth, Herodias divorced Philip, and Philip married Salome; although he died childless. He married his own daughter, and yet died childless?!! Surely, this cannot be right. If we hold that the Gospels and Josephus are both right, the Gospels hold that Herodias had been "his brother Philip’s wife," (Mt. 14:3=Mk. 6:17) and yet Josephus holds that Herodias had a son with Herod [Philip], although Philip died childless. Can there be two sons of Herod "the Great" named Philip? I don't think so; but it may be difficult to rule out conclusively. Let us get back to Whiston's "Herod [Philip]." The underlying text never calls this person Philip, but only Herod. Josephus never uses the name "Herod Philip". Let us try reading this with fresh eyes. To try again to paraphrase the above passage: Herodias had been married to Herod, son of Herod "the Great," whose mother had been Miriamne, and had a daughter, Salome, who had married Philip the tetrarch - who ultimately died childless. That makes much more sense. In fact, the Wikipedia article on "Herod II" understands that Herod II is intended as Herodias' first husband. The Miriamne being mentioned here was not the Maccabean princess Miriamne, but Miriamne, the daughter of Simon son of Boethus of Antiq. 15.9.3. The only son named for her in the list of Herod "the Great"'s progeny in 17.1.3 is indeed, one Herod. The Herod who was Herodias' first husband was not Philip the tetrarch, nor his brother Herod, since he was the son of Cleopatra of Jerusalem; but a different Herod, the son of Miriamne of Simon. 17.1.3 lists no other Philip as a son of Herod "the Great," as well. This clears things up admirably. There is no reason other than biblical, to inject "Herod [Philip]" into the text, when understanding it to refer to Philip the tetrarch makes a man who died childless marry his own daughter. Clearly, the man scholars call Herod II, or Herod Boethus, is intended as the previous husband of Herodias.

(from http://altbibleschol.110mb.com/index...itiesEdits.php)

I suppose Kokkinos and others have identified Herod II (=Herod Boethus) as Herodias' first husband; but it is interesting that the Gospels evidently misread Josephus to be saying that Philip had been Herodias' first husband. I don't recall seeing elsewhere that Herod Boethus cannot have been Philip the tetrarch. Indeed, some scholars have even referred to Herod Boethus as Herrod Philip. Anyone else think I'm right, wrong, or just rehashing old material?

Cheers,
TRBS

maryhelena

Yes, the Herod/Herodias/Philip/JtB scenario is very complex....

However, the suggestion at the end of your post is rather strange:


Herod (Boethus) was disinherited. Philip the Tetrarchy inherited part of Herod the Great's kingdom - and ruled, according to Josephus for 37 years.
Logically, therefore, Herod (Boethus)and Philip the Tetrarch are not one and the same in any historical sense.

RogueBibleScholar

Well, you know that, and I know that, but I have seen the claim that the two are the same, although I can't remember where off the top of my head. I don't recall seeing elsewhere, that if Philip was Herodias' first husband, he would have married his own daughter, although he died childless; and this conflicts with the Gospels (without inventing a Philip totally unknown to history, or calling Cleopatra of Jerusalem's son Herod Philip without historical basis). This probable blunder by the Gospels would be useful in debates with fundamentalists.

maryhelena

So, bottom line here is that gMark and gMatthew, referencing Philip as being a previous husband of Herodias - have been written prior to when Josephus had a change of mind when he published Antiquities in 93/94 ce. And, interestingly, gLuke does not name the previous husband of Herodias - thus not seeking, in view of Antiquities, to contradict the earlier gMark and gMatthew storyline. Remember, Josephus is a prophetic historian and thus is at liberty to rearrange, retell, history for his own prophetic interests.

The issues over Salome being married to Philip are big issues historically. Some of these issues have been dealt with in Ross Kraemer's article: "Implicating Herodias and Her Daughter in the Death of John the Baptist. A (Christian) Theological Strategy?” - JBL. Summer 2006.

It is Salome's assumed marriage to Philip that is the red herring here. One could call it the Red Alert, that things are not what they appear to be.

maryhelena

In the chart below I’ve made a comparision between the Herodias/Herod Boethus/Philip/Antipas scenario - with that of Glaphyra/Alexander/Juba/Archelaus. It’s very possible that Josephus is simply rerunning the historical tape and just adding new names in order to suit his ‘historical’ reconstructions..

-	Mother	Daughter	First Husband	Second Husband	Third Husband
1.	Unknown Armenian princess	Glaphyra: Herod the Great made her leave her 3 children behind after her husband was executed and she returned to her father.	Alexander. great grandson of a high priest. Executed by his father Herod the Great, in 7 b.c.	Juba II, divorce	Archelaus. Exile in 6 c.e.
2.	Berenice	Herodias, grand-daughter of Mariamne. Leaves her first husband and takes her child with her.	Herod Boethus. son of a high priest. Disinherited by his father Herod the Great	Philip	Antipas. Exile in 36 c.e.

aa5874

Why have you assumed the NT is reliable and that they are about actual events?

Just examine the genealogies of Joseph in gMatthew and gLuke and INSTANTLY you will notice that there are massive problems.

I would not even attempt to use the NT for genealogies for anyone in antiquity when the authors claimed Jesus was the Child of a Ghost.

Who was the Great Grandfather of the Holy Ghost in the NT?

RogueBibleScholar

maryhelena: If we can trust the genealogical information in the Western, received Josephus, no way!

"ABOUT this time Aretas (the king of Arabia Petres) and Herod had a quarrel on the account following: Herod the tetrarch had, married the daughter of Aretas, and had lived with her a great while; but when he was once at Rome, he lodged with Herod, (15) who was his brother indeed, but not by the same mother; for this Herod was the son of the high priest Sireoh's daughter." (Antiq. 18.5.1)

"But Herodias, their sister, was married to Herod, the son of Herod the Great, who was born of Mariamne, the daughter of Simon the high priest, who had a daughter, Salome" (Antiq. 18.5.4)

I reconstruct the first passage to also read that Herod was the son of the high priest Simon. Only one other person named Sireoh is known in Josephus, and it too seems to be a scribal error for Simon. From 18.5.1, I conclude that Herodias' previous husband's mother was Miriamne of Simon. Yet the mother of Philip is given here:

"Herod had also to wife Cleopatra of Jerusalem, and by her he had his sons Herod and Philip; which last was also brought up at Rome." (Antiq. 17.1.3, cf. Antiq. 18.4.6)

It is Cleopatra of Jerusalem, not Miriamne of Simon. It is a Christian fantasy that Philip was married to Herodias before she married Herod Antipas. Philip did marry Salome, Harodias' daughter, however. No other Philip is listed in Josephus' list of Herod "the Great"'s progeny, in 17.1.3. I also read the Slavonic Josephus account, but whatever early versions of the Wars said, the present version, you must admit, has many more Christian expansions than the Western, received text. I discount it entirely when it says Herodias was married to Philip, as a late insertion due to the Gospels' misreading of Josephus.

The narrative of the authentic Josephus is so tightly woven and internally self-consistent (which is not to say, always literally factual) to allow these Christian innovations on his texts to stand unnoticed.

Where have I done that?

aa5874

You should have a good memory.

RogueBibleScholar

That is written for the edification of those who do hold both to be right. I do not.

maryhelena

Slovonic Josephus says Herodias was the wife of Philip the Tetrarch. gMark and gMatthew say that Herodias was married to Philip. We have to deal with this reality. Yes, it means that Josephus has to be challenged - but Josephus is a prophetic historian and challenging Josephus should be automatic.

The chart I drew up indicates that the Herod Boethus/Herodias/Philip/Antipas scenario looks very much like a retelling of the earlier drama re Alexander/Glaphyra/Juba/Archelaus. The marriage of Archelaus to Glaphyra was a big deal re the Jewish religion and it's not taking kindly to brother in-law marriage. Herodias, a descendant of the Hasmonean royal bloodline is not so likely to involve herself in such a marriage. Glaphyra, seemingly a convert to the Jewish religion on her first marriage - and her two sons later giving up there Jewish heritage and religion - fits the story of being involved in a not kosher brother in-law marriage, better than does, Herodias. Josephus even going so far as to have the first husband of Glaphyra appear in a dream to complain to her about it - after which she dies.

There are numerous issue with the Herodias story - the Glaphyra scenario is a straight forward historical story. (well, as far as can be ascertained).

I'm not in the least bit interested in trying to undercut the integrity of gospel writers - we have what we have - and we have to deal with it. And that does not mean, either, that I am interested in undercutting the integrity of Josephus. The goal should be to understand both.

I'm re posting the chart as it needed a small correction - ie Herod Boethus is a grandson not a son of the high priest.

-	Mother	Daughter	First Husband	Second Husband	Third Husband
1.	Unknown Armenian princess	Glaphyra: Herod the Great made her leave her 3 children behind after her husband was executed and she returned to her father.	Alexander. great grandson of a high priest. Executed by his father Herod the Great, in 7 b.c.	Juba II, divorce	Archelaus. Exile in 6 c.e.
2.	Berenice	Herodias, grand-daughter of Mariamne. Leaves her first husband and takes her child with her.	Herod Boethus. Grandson of a high priest. Disinherited by his father Herod the Great	Philip	Antipas. Exile in 36 c.e.