Chili

So do you think that heaven can be conceived to exist without hell?

Remember here that heaven was opened for the followers Jesus who are going to heaven (Jesuits we call them) and thus not for Christians.

bopot

Did it, before the NT?

Jehovah's Witnesses equate Hell with the grave, rather than a place, yet they still have a heaven where 144,000 special people go (the rest wait, in hell, as it were, for resurrection, if they be so lucky). Or something like that. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

elevator

Frankly, I don't think either one can be conceived to exist, but that is besides the issue. The point I wanted to make is that although the God in the Old Testament seems to be quite nasty, the God of the New Testament isn't any better.

Chili

No it did not because Heaven is an NT concept that is for Catholics only.

Hell is not a grave but a state of mind wherein Heaven is visible but not the ability to enter it. It is like starting a race that cannot be finished because there is a divide that cannot be crossed. From this follows that hell visible only by those who have crossed (finished the race), or hell could exist without heaven and that is not possible for the same reason.

Chili

You are probably referring to Lord God instead of God.

elevator

I have no idea what you are trying to say. Please enlighten me as to the difference between "Lord God" and "God" in a biblical context.

elevator

The point is that the New Testament introduces the concept of eternal punishment (or hell). It doesn't matter who inflicts it, or in what context it is inflicted. The fact that it can be (and according to millions of believers will be), makes the God (or Judge, or whatever you want to call it) of the New Testament just as nasty (if not more so) as the Old Testament God. In the words of Dennett: "how can I respect someone who worships the perpetrator of infinite pain?".

Chili

Nothing had changed between the OT and the NT with regard to eternal punishment. The children of Israel spend 40 years in the desert and died nonetheless.

Jesus showed us how to spend 40 days in the desert, 40 months in Galilee and the rest of those 40 years in heaven . . . instead of wandering aimlessly in the desert and die nonetheless.

Just because the NT 'calls a spade a spade' for what it actually is does not make the NT wrong (and you might want to pass this on to Dennet).

Chili

God is first cause and Lord God is second cause and therefore each one is exhausted by their function as first and second cause.

If you ever read Genesis the above must have been very obvious to you.

Craigart14

Jesus could easily have said that his followers were going to heaven and everybody else was going to sleep. No need for eternal torment.

Craig