Ben C Smith

The question sometimes arises on this discussion board of whom Irenaeus thought lived until the time of Trajan in Against Heresies 2.22.5:

...sicut evangelium και παντες οι πρεσβυτεροι μαρτυρουσιν, οι κατα την Ασιαν Ιωαννη τω του κυριου μαθητη συμβεβληκοτες, παραδεδωκεναι τον Ιωαννην. παρεμεινεν γαρ αυτοις μεχρι των Τραιανου χρονων.

...just as the gospel and all the elders, who had dwelled with John the disciple of the Lord in Asia, testify that John delivered. For he remained with them until the times of Trajan

I have maintained that it is pretty obvious that John, not Jesus, is the one whom Irenaeus thinks remained so long. For one thing, the for serves to explain how Asian elders known to Irenaeus could have known a disciple of the Lord (the disciple lived an extraordinarily long time). For another, John is the most recent possible antecedent of the understood pronominal subject he.

But, just to seal the deal, refer also to refer also to Irenaeus in Against Heresies 3.3.4:

Αλλα και η εν Εφεσω εκκλησια υπο �*αυλου μεν τεθεμελιωμενη, Ιωαννου δε παραμειναντος αυτοις μεχρι των Τραιανου χρονων, μαρτυς αληθης εστι της των αποστολων παραδοσεως.

Sed et quae est Ephesi ecclesia a Paulo quidem fundata, Iohanne autem permanente apud eos usque ad Traiani tempora, testis est verus apostolorum traditionis.

But also the church in Ephesus, which was founded by Paul, and having John remaining among them all the way up until the times of Trajan, is a true witness of the tradition of the apostles.

No chance of confusion here. It is John who remained until the times of Trajan, according to Irenaeus.

Ben.

Roger Pearse

Agreed. Indeed the mark that John leaves in the historical record outside the NT is greater than all the other apostles, which suggests by itself that he did indeed live long enough to become known to significant numbers of people.

DCHindley

Whoo-weee must I be out of date, but I thought that complete texts of Irenaeus' works were only extant in Latin mss.

One of your citations is part Latin and part Greek. I am aware that there are fragments of his original Greek supposedly preserved in quotations from Epiphanius and others.

Is the Greek here derived from quotations found in Greek authors?

DCH

aa5874

Can you list this historical record of John outside the NT? What are your sources for this historical record?

I would definitely like to see this extra-biblical, non-apologetic historical record of John, urgently.

Roger Pearse

And Armenian.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Ben C Smith

The original Greek has been lost, yes, except of course for lengthy and invaluable patristic citations.

Eusebius, Epiphanius, and quite a few others, even a few medieval catenae.

Yes. The Greek portion of that one is from Eusebius, History of the Church 3.23.3. It is customary, in fact, to give the Greek of Irenaeus whenever available, since that was the original language, and a simple comparison with the Latin translation (as well as other translations) will confirm that the patristic quotations are usually verbatim or very close to it.

That particular quotation, BTW, came straight from one of my web pages, a page which I happen to have compiled before the full Latin text of Irenaeus was readily available to me. I hope shortly to give the Latin in all instances on my site and the Greek whenever I can.

The Latin and Greek texts from the Harvey edition are available as .jpg images on my site, and you can link to them from an English version for convenience.

Ben.

mountainman

Perhaps the dialogue was useful to calumnify
Apollonius of Tyana, and yet leave a remnant memory in the
massive and complex sub-plot of ecclesiastical history, for
someone who was well regarded.

According to Maria Dzielska Apollonius
lived to be 110 years of age.

JoeWallack

JW:
"No chance of confusion here."? Jesus Ben, which "John" is it? "Mark's" John the Disciple, "John's" John the Disciple, some other John the Disciple, John the Presbyter, John the Elder, Dear John, John Deer, Little John, Big Bad John or John Icant Rememberwhohisfatherwas?



Joseph

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

DCHindley

Thanks for that, Ben. I had noted your site before starting to frequent this board, and liked the concept a lot. Keep it up!

DCH

Ben C Smith

You are correct. I should have been more specific.

What I meant was no chance of confusion between John and Jesus.

I agree that the matter of which John is which is always potentially confusing.

Ben.