Freethought & Rationalism Archive

freigeister · 04-13-2005, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorkosigan

I suggest you track down a copy of Bowersock's Fiction as History.

Here are a couple of quotations from Bowersock (Fiction as History: Nero to Julian. G. W. Bowersock. Ucal: 1994):

Quote:

The tendency of Christian interpreters to look for the pagan origins of Christian rites, utterances, and images has all too often obscured influences in the reverse direction. This is particularly true for late antiquity, but to some extent also for the earlier imperial period. The story of the eucharist had, by the time of Achilles Tatius, been available in all the canonical gospels as well as Saint Paul's First Letter to the Corinthians…Achilles Tatius therefore invented something new and exciting when he transferred the revelation of wine from Attica to Tyre. The most plausible source for his invention is the Gospel story. It makes far more sense to postulate a direct influence upon the Greek novelist than to suppose that the writer innocently preserved an otherwise unknown tradition of great antiquity that was the source that inspired Jesus himself. (p.138)

Quote:

But in the course of these six chapters the connection between imperial fiction of various kinds and the Gospel narratives has grown ever stronger. The stories of Jesus inspired the polytheists to create a wholly new genre that we might call romantic scripture. (p. 143)

Vorkosigan · 04-13-2005, 08:16 AM

Quote:

But in the course of these six chapters the connection between imperial fiction of various kinds and the Gospel narratives has grown ever stronger. The stories of Jesus inspired the polytheists to create a wholly new genre that we might call romantic scripture. (p. 143)

I'm going to show that it makes more sense to see it as Bowersock getting it backward.

I should add that if your school has NetLibrary it has Bowersock online.

Peter Kirby · 04-13-2005, 07:38 PM

Does anyone know if there are reviews out on Thompson's book? Or, as another question, are there journals requesting reviews?

best,
Peter Kirby

Sheshbazzar · 04-13-2005, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorkosigan

The second flag-raising, the famous one, was posed. The first one was caught on camera, but the pic, also posed, is boring.

And of course unlike the accounts of those raising's given in the Bible, we know for fact, that the US flag was indisputably raised on Iwo Jima.

John A. Broussard · 04-13-2005, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

And of course unlike the accounts of those raising's given in the Bible, we know for fact, that the US flag was indisputably raised on Iwo Jima.

I'm beginning to wish I'd never mentioned the Iwo Jima flag raising. I brought it up because, at the time, I considered it to be a genuine, on the spot, photo of the original raising. That was, we are now all agreed, a myth. But the myth persisted and became what I think we can consider to be pseudo-history, as with the Jesus stories. I never thought to challenge the story as I'd first heard it, but people more astute than me thought it just looked too good. Finally, the truth (or what we now consider to be the truth) came out.

As agatar (above) points out, we may still not have the final story.

andrewcriddle · 04-15-2005, 12:59 PM

Quote:

In Thompson's view, the contemporary audience for whom the Old and New Testament were written would naturally have interpreted David and Jesus not as historical figures, but as metaphors embodying long-established messianic traditions.

Leaving aside the question as to whether there was a historical David it seems clear that David is regarded in the OT narrative as a historical figure. ie as the founder of the Judean royal line and of Judean rule from Jerusalem.

In other words David seems clearly regarded in the accounts about him as in the same category as say Ezra (in the OT)and Lycurgus (in Greek tradition), who seem clearly presented as historical figures whatever their true historical status.

This differs from say figures such as Samson (in the OT) and Heracles (in Greek tradition) who are less clearly presented as historical figures.

Andrew Criddle

John A. Broussard · 04-15-2005, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

This differs from say figures such as Samson (in the OT) and Heracles (in Greek tradition) who are less clearly presented as historical figures.

Is there some test that can be applied to determine when the OT writers were depicting a historical rather than a non-historical figure?

I know that's not an easy question to answer, but it would be nice to have at least a rule of thumb handy.

andrewcriddle · 04-15-2005, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John A. Broussard

Is there some test that can be applied to determine when the OT writers were depicting a historical rather than a non-historical figure?

I know that's not an easy question to answer, but it would be nice to have at least a rule of thumb handy.

(I'm not talking here about whether a figure is historical but whether he is regarded as historical)

IMO if a character is heavily presented as an answer to a genuine historical question then he is being regarded as historical.

In the case of David he is being presented as the answer to the question 'how did the Judean royal dynasty in Jerusalem begin ?'.

Andrew Criddle

Peter Kirby · 04-15-2005, 01:52 PM

So, are there no reviews of Thompson's book? What about requests for reviews?

best,
Peter Kirby

Marxist · 04-15-2005, 08:09 PM

I'm reading it now, and it seems pretty good. Thompson is dissecting the views of Crossan, Mack, Borg, Sanders, etc, in the first part of the book (which is focused on Jesus).

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04-13-2005, 07:38 PM	#13
Peter Kirby Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: the reliquary of Ockham's razor Posts: 4,035	Does anyone know if there are reviews out on Thompson's book? Or, as another question, are there journals requesting reviews? best, Peter Kirby

04-15-2005, 01:52 PM	#19
Peter Kirby Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: the reliquary of Ockham's razor Posts: 4,035	So, are there no reviews of Thompson's book? What about requests for reviews? best, Peter Kirby

04-15-2005, 08:09 PM	#20
Marxist Banned Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: US Posts: 301	I'm reading it now, and it seems pretty good. Thompson is dissecting the views of Crossan, Mack, Borg, Sanders, etc, in the first part of the book (which is focused on Jesus).

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