Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Loomis · 03-10-2006, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pervy

Interestingly, Yahweh is depicted there as a humanoid figure with a bull's head - in a similar manner to El (the chief god of the Canaanite pantheon).

I don't have links to these inscriptions, but I am sure someone around here will know which inscriptions I am talking about and be able to dig some up.

Here ya go …

http://www.yahwehism.com/images/yah-of-samaria.jpg

Notice that there are two flavors of cows. Stick cows and real cows.

It can be argued that the stick cows were drawn in later, and that whoever did it was not a believer – but someone who didn’t understand Yahwism and was mocking it.

In other words, the guy who wrote “Yahweh and his Asherah” may have been an “ignorant” outsider.

At least that’s what apologists will tell you!

Loomis · 03-10-2006, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Eve's speech in Gen. 4:1.

Genesis 4:1

The man knew his wife. She conceived and gave birth to Cain. Then she said, “I have created a man with Yahweh.”

Q: What did the man know about his wife?

A: That she was pregnant with Yahweh’s kid.

No joking.

In some stories Yahweh was a horny messenger god. He delivered messages from El. He screwed girls too.

Genesis 21:1-2

Yahweh visited Sarah just as he had said he would and Yahweh did for Sarah what he had promised. So Sarah conceived and bore Abraham a son in his old age at the appointed time that the elohim had told him.

I Samuel 2:21

Yahweh visited Hannah so that she conceived, and bare three sons and two daughters.

Naphtali Jones · 03-10-2006, 10:31 PM

So Mary wasn't the first, eh?

This Yahweh is reminding more and more of Zeus. I sure didn't learn about all this in Sunday School.

Loomis · 03-10-2006, 11:01 PM

Hey Pervy,

Are you familiar with this?

English Translation of 11Qmelchizedek

WARNING: The author of this article apparently believes Yahweh was a terrible god who flew around on the back of cherubs and blew smoke out his nostrils.

Read it and you’ll see what I mean about Psalm 82.

Loomis · 03-11-2006, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Loomis has again used the tactic of evading the fact that that the Name YHWH is to be found within the text from Gen.2:4 forward in at least sixty three instances, to make his claim that the Name YHWH was "inserted into an older story about EL" If that is the correct view regarding this verse, the implication is that it also had to be inserted into each and every preceding verse in which it also appears, including specifically Eve's speech in Gen. 4:1.

Fat chance.

Psalm 14:2 Yahweh looks down from heaven at the human race …

Psalm 53:2 The elohim look down from heaven at the human race …

Psalm 14:4 … those who devour my people as if they were eating bread, and do not call out to Yahweh.

Psalm 53:4 … those who devour my people as if they were eating bread, and do not call out to the elohim.

John Kesler · 03-11-2006, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Naphtali Jones

So Mary wasn't the first, eh?

This Yahweh is reminding more and more of Zeus. I sure didn't learn about all this in Sunday School.

The Jewish writer Philo, who lived circa 20 BCE to 40 CE, explicitly states that God impregnated some OT women, emphasis mine:

Quote:

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/yonge/book5.html
XIII. (43) But we must begin our explanation of these mysteries in this way. A husband unites with his wife, and the male human being with the female human being in a union which tends to the generation of children, in strict accordance with and obedience to nature. But it is not lawful for virtues, which are the parents of many perfect things, to associate with a mortal husband. But they, without having received the power of generation from any other being, will never be able by themselves alone to conceive any thing. (44) Who, then, is it who sows good seed in them, except the Father of the universe, the uncreated God, he who is the parent of all things? This, therefore, is the being who sows, and presently he bestows his own offspring, which he himself did sow; for God creates nothing for himself, inasmuch as he is in need of nothing, but he creates every thing for him who is able to take it. (45) And I will bring forward as a competent witness in proof of what I have said, the most holy Moses.{14}{#ge 21:1.} For he introduces Sarah as conceiving a son when God beheld her by himself; but he represents her as bringing forth her son, not to him who beheld her then, but to him who was eager to attain to wisdom, and his name is called Abraham. (46) And he teaches the same lesson more plainly in the case of Leah, where he says that "God opened her Womb."{15}{#ge 29:13.} But to open the womb is the especial business of the husband. And she having conceived, brought forth, not to God, for he alone is sufficient and all-abundant for himself, but to him who underwent labour for the sake of that which is good, namely, for Jacob; so that in this instance virtue received the divine seed from the great Cause of all things, but brought forth her offspring to one of her lovers, who deserved to be preferred to all her other Suitors.{16}{#ge 25:21.}

(47) Again, when the all-wise Isaac addressed his supplications to God, Rebecca, who is perseverance, became pregnant by the agency of him who received the supplication; but Moses, who received Zipporah, {17}{#ex 2:21.} that is to say, winged and sublime virtue, without any supplication or entreaty on his part, found that she conceived by no mortal man.

The authors of the birth narratives in Matthew and Luke may have been influenced by Philo when they claimed that God was the true father of Jesus.

Quote:

Luke 1:31,34-35 (New Jerusalem Bible)
31 Look! You are to conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you must name him Jesus. 34 Mary said to the angel, 'But how can this come about, since I have no knowledge of man?' 35 The angel answered, 'The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will cover you with its shadow. And so the child will be holy and will be called Son of God.

John Kesler · 03-11-2006, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loomis

I Samuel 2:21
Yahweh visited Hannah so that she conceived, and bare three sons and two daughters.

And of couse the "Magnificat," Mary's song of praise in Luke 1:46-55, is based on Hannah's prayer in 1 Samuel 2:1-10.

Clivedurdle · 03-11-2006, 07:47 AM

And some seed fell on stony ground...

might that be a misunderstanding of the type of seed?

Sheshbazzar · 03-11-2006, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loomis

Genesis 4:1

The man knew his wife. She conceived and gave birth to Cain. Then she said, “I have created a man with Yahweh.”

Q: What did the man know about his wife?

A: That she was pregnant with Yahweh’s kid.

No joking.

In some stories Yahweh was a horny messenger god. He delivered messages from El. He screwed girls too.

Genesis 21:1-2

Yahweh visited Sarah just as he had said he would and Yahweh did for Sarah what he had promised. So Sarah conceived and bore Abraham a son in his old age at the appointed time that the elohim had told him.

I Samuel 2:21

Yahweh visited Hannah so that she conceived, and bare three sons and two daughters.

Thank you for your response Loomis, and if you will, please clarify for me your opinion or position on this matter?
In the above quotations where The Name appears, do you believe that it was present in those verses in the original manuscripts? or that it was a latter insertion or substitution ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loomis

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar
Loomis has again used the tactic of evading the fact that that the Name YHWH is to be found within the text from Gen.2:4 forward in at least sixty three instances, to make his claim that the Name YHWH was "inserted into an older story about EL" If that is the correct view regarding this verse, the implication is that it also had to be inserted into each and every preceding verse in which it also appears, including specifically Eve's speech in Gen. 4:1.

Fat chance.

Psalm 14:2 Yahweh looks down from heaven at the human race …

Psalm 53:2 The elohim look down from heaven at the human race …

Psalm 14:4 … those who devour my people as if they were eating bread, and do not call out to Yahweh.

Psalm 53:4 … those who devour my people as if they were eating bread, and do not call out to the elohim.

Again Loomis, the short reply "Fat chance", is ambiguous as to what you are trying to convey here, yes, obviously these paralleling verses alternately employ The Name, and Elohim.
So are you saying that they were all originally written with the term Elohim? or with The Name? or as they presently occur? or something entirely different?

Respecting Pervy's point that The Documentary Theory properly only deals with the development of text of the Torah (the first five books) and that your above quotations are taken from Psalms, and as your reply; "Fat chance" follows directly upon the quoting of my words;

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

the Name YHWH is to be found within the text from Gen.2:4 forward in at least sixty three instances, to make his claim that the Name YHWH was "inserted into an older story about EL" If that is the correct view regarding this verse, the implication is that it also had to be inserted into each and every preceding verse in which it also appears, including specifically Eve's speech in Gen. 4:1.

your reply

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loomis

Fat chance.

So that there be no further misunderstanding here Loomis, what is the "Fat chance"? that The Name was inserted into Gen 4:1?
Presenting a list of Psalms does not really pertain to the question at hand, that is, What do you believe about the use of The Name YHWH throughout Genesis, in the 200+ instances where it is employed - in your view, is it original to the text or not?
Before you make any hasty reply, let me remind you of how carefully every single letter of Genesis has been accounted for, and that there are certain
"peculiarities" inherent in its precise letter sequences, that would not have occurred apart from a very deliberate, and carefully planned composition.

Naphtali Jones · 03-11-2006, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Before you make any hasty reply, let me remind you of how carefully every single letter of Genesis has been accounted for, and that there are certain "peculiarities" inherent in its precise letter sequences, that would not have occurred apart from a very deliberate, and carefully planned composition.

Oh no! Not THE BIBLE CODE crap again. Hasn't this been debunked enough times already?

BTW, not to speak on behalf of Loomis, but it seems he is merely trying to make the point that just because YHWH was substituted into the text some times does not mean that it was substituted every time. There are times when there is specific evidence that a substitution was made.

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03-10-2006, 10:31 PM	#53
Naphtali Jones Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ross River,Yukon Posts: 166	So Mary wasn't the first, eh? This Yahweh is reminding more and more of Zeus. I sure didn't learn about all this in Sunday School.

03-10-2006, 11:01 PM	#54
Loomis Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: The recesses of Zaphon Posts: 969	Hey Pervy, Are you familiar with this? English Translation of 11Qmelchizedek WARNING: The author of this article apparently believes Yahweh was a terrible god who flew around on the back of cherubs and blew smoke out his nostrils. Read it and you’ll see what I mean about Psalm 82.

03-11-2006, 07:47 AM	#58
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	And some seed fell on stony ground... might that be a misunderstanding of the type of seed?

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