Freethought & Rationalism Archive

arnoldo · 03-20-2010, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Just to be clear, even though Price's conclusions are driven by activism at the expense of probability, his book gives plenty of useful information to an amateur audience. For example, on page 110, he makes a point about John the Baptist according to Jesus as quoted in Matthew 11:11 and Luke 7:28, which are sourced from the gospel of Q:

I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

I overlooked that quote until now, but it seems to be striking evidence that Jesus was subordinate to John the Baptist in the earliest Christian traditions (I take Q to be earlier than Mark). Jesus was born of a woman according to every early tradition, so Jesus is saying that John is superior to himself. You can either make a sidestep--maybe Jesus was only being humble or he was talking about the relative status of John before his own rise to glory--or you can accept the most probable implication of this quote. If you combine that with the accounts of John baptizing Jesus, then the implication is further reinforced.

The following line in Mark 1:7 is evidence of a later interpolation placing Jesus superior of John.

And this was his message: "After me will come one more powerful than I, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie.

The accounts of John the Baptist by Josephus also appear to be interpolations.

On a side note; When is the earliest date of an original written document attributed to Josephus? If there aren't any original documents of Josephus documented to the first century then it's probable that all of the writings attributed to him are of a much latter origin than previously thought.

Toto · 03-20-2010, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

...
The following line in Mark 1:7 is evidence of a later interpolation placing Jesus superior of John.

And this was his message: "After me will come one more powerful than I, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie.

What do you mean by intepolation?

Quote:

The accounts of John the Baptist by Josephus also appear to be interpolations.

Why do you think this?

Quote:

On a side note; When is the earliest date of an original written document attributed to Josephus? If there aren't any original documents of Josephus documented to the first century then it's probable that all of the writings attributed to him are of a much latter origin than previously thought.

Please be serious. There are no original documents.

arnoldo · 03-20-2010, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Just to be clear, even though Price's conclusions are driven by activism at the expense of probability,

This is your misimpression, and might constitute libel. Price is driven by critical analysis.

The following is an example of critical analysis.

Quote:

Robert M. Price
Deconstructing Jesus.
Amherst, NY: Prometheus Books, 2000. 284

Thus it seems to me that Jesus must be categorized with other legendary founder figures including the Buddha, Krishna, and Lao-tzu. There may have been a real figure there, but there is simply no longer any way of being sure.

It ain't libel if it's true.

Toto · 03-20-2010, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

...
The following is an example of critical analysis.

...

No, it is a brief comment.

I am not convinced that you understand what is involved here.

arnoldo · 03-20-2010, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

...
The following is an example of critical analysis.

...

No, it is a brief comment.

I am not convinced that you understand what is involved here.

I admit I haven't read the book and it's a brief comment. Perhaps I'll read the book. A review of the book is available in the link below;

http://depts.drew.edu/jhc/doherty_price.html

Toto · 03-20-2010, 12:13 PM

So Abe feels free to shoot from the hip and accuse someone with vastly more knowledge and training of basing his opinions on "activism" and arnoldo tries to support him without claiming to know anything at all.

This is not the purpose of this forum. Please refrain from charges like this unless you have some basis in fact.

arnoldo · 03-20-2010, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

So Abe feels free to shoot from the hip and accuse someone with vastly more knowledge and training of basing his opinions on "activism" and arnoldo tries to support him without claiming to know anything at all.

This is not the purpose of this forum. Please refrain from charges like this unless you have some basis in fact.

My bad :redface:

Toto · 03-20-2010, 12:29 PM

arnoldo - please make some response to the quesitons in post 7 that indicates you are following the discussion, or I will split off your post as off topic.

arnoldo · 03-20-2010, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

...
The following line in Mark 1:7 is evidence of a later interpolation placing Jesus superior of John.

And this was his message: "After me will come one more powerful than I, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie.

What do you mean by intepolation?

Why do you think this?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

For example, on page 110, he makes a point about John the Baptist according to Jesus as quoted in Matthew 11:11 and Luke 7:28, which are sourced from the gospel of Q:

I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

I overlooked that quote until now, but it seems to be striking evidence that Jesus was subordinate to John the Baptist in the earliest Christian traditions (I take Q to be earlier than Mark).

Abe made a comment that the early church placed John superior to Jesus whereas Mark 1:7 places Jesus superior to John. Maybe scribes inserted Mark 1:7 to the original document to reflect this doctrinal change.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

On a side note; When is the earliest date of an original written document attributed to Josephus? If there aren't any original documents of Josephus documented to the first century then it's probable that all of the writings attributed to him are of a much latter origin than previously thought.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

There are no original documents.

There are no original gospel/epistle documents either, only copies of originals which are dated to the 2nd century or later.

arnoldo · 03-20-2010, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

..--the sloppiness of his scholarship,...

This is where you are getting into professional libel. Price has 2 Ph.D's. You have ??

An appeal to authority does not an argument make. BTW, I have a high school diploma and a BA.

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03-20-2010, 12:13 PM	#6
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	So Abe feels free to shoot from the hip and accuse someone with vastly more knowledge and training of basing his opinions on "activism" and arnoldo tries to support him without claiming to know anything at all. This is not the purpose of this forum. Please refrain from charges like this unless you have some basis in fact.

03-20-2010, 12:29 PM	#8
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	arnoldo - please make some response to the quesitons in post 7 that indicates you are following the discussion, or I will split off your post as off topic.

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