Freethought & Rationalism Archive

GakuseiDon · 11-27-2009, 07:00 PM

Recently on this board, Dave31 created a thread about Acharya S's new book "Origins of Christianity". This made me have another look at Acharya S's earlier book "The Christ Conspiracy", and I noticed something that I hadn't before, and I've never heard anyone else discuss.

Acharya has referred a few times to her belief that there was an ancient global civilization that spread common religious concepts and even language throughout the world, from the Americas to Japan.

What I never realised was that she suggests that it was the Pygmies. And apparently they believed in a Pygmy Christ. Yes, I'm still laughing as well.

I've given quotes from her book below. Dave31 will be able to verify that the quotes accurately represent her (though page numbers may vary with different editions).

p. 391:

Quote:

Evidence of an Ancient Global Civilization

As has been seen, it is virtually impossible to determine which nation is the progenitor of western culture and, therefore, the Judeo-Christian tradition, and we are left to ponder the idea of another source, such as the Pygmies, who claim to have been a global culture many thousands of years ago.

p. 288:

Quote:

Indeed, into any fair analysis must be factored an overlooked people who, if the theory of evolution is correct, must constitute one of the oldest races on the planet: the Pygmies. In reality, the Pygmies provide a key piece of the puzzle, as many of their ancient traditions are basically the same as those of the cultures that succeeded them. We have already seen that they were pre-Christian monotheists who revered the cross.

She goes on to quote author Jackson, who having discussed Pygmy influence on the Horus myth, writes:

Quote:

[Jackson writes that] "... The Pygmy Christ was born of a virgin, died for the salvation of his people, arose from the dead, and finally ascended to heaven. Certainly this looks like Christianity before Christ."

She then quotes Jackson again, who refers to how "Hallet's Pygmy friends" told Hallet that in the distant past the Pygmies had a "highly technical and advanced type of material culture and that they built boats and traveled widely around the world, but that this technical excellence brought them nothing but bad luck", which lead them to abandon that "high material civilization".

Elsewhere, Acharya goes on to describe similar names between the Mayan (in the Americas, remember!) and Eastern deities, and notes a possible similarity with that of the Pygmies':

Quote:

Moreover, the Mayan creator god was called "Hurakan", and the Caribbean storm god was "Hurukan," both of which are nearly identical to the Tibetan wrathful diety, "Heruka," which in turn is related to Herakcles or Hercules. It is from this stormy god that we get the word "Hurricane." Walker hypothesizes that "Horus" was "Heruka" of the East and notes that the Pygmies revered Heru, an archaic name for Horus.

In this final quote. Acharya speculates that the Pygmies are the link "between the black and white races":

Quote:

Thus, Pygmy remains and culture are found around the globe, including from Egypt to India...

Although they may be the oldest race, the Pygmies are in fact true human beings and evidently reached an advanced state long before the "giants" existed in large numbers. The Pygmies represent an anthropological enigma, however, as they have been described as both negroid and caucasoid...

In the Pygmies can be found not only very ancient origins of human culture and religion but evidently a "missing link" between the black and white races as well.

This is all so bizarre that I can't believe it hasn't come up anywhere else before. (In the last day I've raised this topic on a couple of other boards). But I thought it was well worth highlighting here, and in Acharya's own words to avoid Dave31's usual accusations of taking her out of context or not reading her books.

If Dave31 can respond to this post, to verify that I haven't misrepresented Acharya, that would be appreciated.

Roger Pearse · 11-28-2009, 02:33 AM

I knew the book was a bit short on references. I suppose this is another small point against it.

Celsus · 11-28-2009, 08:12 AM

Pygmy is not a race or ethnicity or population group. Pygmy if anything, is a biological condition (with pejorative connotations) - there are numerous different, unrelated groups in Asia and Africa with completely different cosmogonies so if Acharya's nonsense has any credence, which 'pygmies' is she referring to? Or are they all related to this ancient global civilisation?

Relying on colonial stereotypes for "scholarship" is really, really piss poor - this must be near the bottom of the barrel surely.

ApostateAbe · 11-28-2009, 09:09 AM

It is fun to speculate at what it would take from Acharya S for the commitment of Dave31 to begin to slide.

Toto · 11-28-2009, 10:53 AM

That part of the Chirst Conspiracy is online here, but there are few references to Pygmies. The source for the idea seems to be (from here) The Origin and Evolution of Religion (or via: amazon.co.uk) by Albert Churchward, also on google books, first published in 1924.

The book seems to posit the Pygmies as the forerunners of the Egyptian religion. I think if you delve into this, you will run into some Afrocentric theories - amd also Freemasonry. Churchward was a Freemason, and also wrote The Origin of Freemasonry, which Google books notes

Quote:

The secrets of the universe? Here they are, revealed in all their glory, in a work of such profound import than it promises the ultimate solution to the grand problems of Socialism and Anarchy themselves. Learn about the "Totemic Mysteries performed in Sign Language by Primitive Man." Discover the "Periodic Laws of the Corpuscles." Uncover the ongoing secrets of the Egyptian god Horus. A classic of comparative religion buried in pseudo-science and superstition, this 1920 work is a must-read for students of the search for spiritual enlightenment in all its convoluted splendor.

I am waiting to hear from Acharya S on a question I asked of her before I spend any more time on her work.

GakuseiDon · 11-29-2009, 02:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

It is fun to speculate at what it would take from Acharya S for the commitment of Dave31 to begin to slide.

I think it would take Dave31 to actually try to defend Acharya S using specific points from her books. Once he realised that there is no support from the sources she uses, I can't help but think he will start questioning her on all her claims, and become her worst nightmare.

lpetrich · 11-29-2009, 03:04 AM

That really takes the cake. Let's have a good, loud laugh at her expense.

Her alleged world-spanning civilization would have to have left behind a LOT of artifacts and archeological sites. Where are those long-gone Pygmy cities? Complete with graveyards with lots of skeletons of their former inhabitants.

As to the Pygmies' claims, can one be sure that they are not teasing Western travelers with tall tales? Especially Western travelers who seem gravely serious.

Solo · 11-29-2009, 05:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

I knew the book was a bit short on references. I suppose this is another small point against it.

The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man meet Dopey !

Jiri

Dave31 · 11-30-2009, 09:34 PM

GakuseiDon, AS is not quoting Churchward for any of the pertinent contentions concerning Pygmies.

On p. 388 of Christ Con (or via: amazon.co.uk), she records Jackson in Christianity Before Christ (or via: amazon.co.uk) as saying:

Quote:

"Hallet's Pygmy friends told him that in the distant past they developed a highly technical and advanced type of material culture and that they built boats and traveled widely around the world, but that this technical excellence brought them nothing but bad luck, so, preferring happiness to misery, they finally gave up this high material civilization. There may be a lot of truth in these traditions, for Pygmy fossils have been found in all parts of the world."

Hallet is also the one who brings up the Pygmy Christ, also related by Jackson. Jean-Pierre Hallet was a Belgian anthropologist who lived with the Pygmies for 20 years and recorded what they relayed to him in his book Pygmy Kitabu. of course, all that is inconvenient to your agenda of trashing Acharya so lets just omit all that.

It's amazing how avowed Christians like, for example, GakuseiDon & Roger can hold onto ridiculous beliefs among you all, but you never harp on them. You only go after Acharya S, a female author who doesn't believe that a Jewish guy 2,000 years ago was born of a virgin, raised people from the dead, walked on water, himself rose from the dead and flew off into heaven - as GD and Roger believe. Meanwhile, you attempt to ridicule Acharya, who doesn't believe these ridiculous things which have no credible evidence to substantiate the claims at all. Ever heard of people throwing rocks at glass houses? You guys are on absolutely no moral high ground whatsoever - and *THAT* is what's really funny here.

Toto · 11-30-2009, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave31

....

On p. 388 of Christ Con (or via: amazon.co.uk), she records Jackson in Christianity Before Christ (or via: amazon.co.uk) as saying:

Quote:

"Hallet's Pygmy friends told him that in the distant past they developed a highly technical and advanced type of material culture and that they built boats and traveled widely around the world, but that this technical excellence brought them nothing but bad luck, so, preferring happiness to misery, they finally gave up this high material civilization. There may be a lot of truth in these traditions, for Pygmy fossils have been found in all parts of the world."

Hallet is also the one who brings up the Pygmy Christ, also related by Jackson. Jean-Pierre Hallet was a Belgian anthropologist who lived with the Pygmies for 20 years and recorded what they relayed to him in his book Pygmy Kitabu. of course, all that is inconvenient to your agenda of trashing Acharya so lets just omit all that.

It is probable that the Pygmies did tell a story like this. Lots of people make up stories like this to pull the legs of visiting anthropologists. Why should anyone think it is credible?

Quote:

It's amazing how avowed Christians like, for example, GakuseiDon & Roger can hold onto ridiculous beliefs among you all, but you never harp on them.

Not true.

Quote:

You only go after Acharya S, a female author who doesn't believe that a Jewish guy 2,000 years ago was born of a virgin, raised people from the dead, walked on water, himself rose from the dead and flew off into heaven - as GD and Roger believe. Meanwhile, you attempt to ridicule Acharya, who doesn't believe these ridiculous things which have no credible evidence to substantiate the claims at all. Ever heard of people throwing rocks at glass houses? You guys are on absolutely no moral high ground whatsoever - and *THAT* is what's really funny here.

Please. The saying is about people who live in glass houses should not throw stones. This is not a glass house. It is a discussion forum. I get the feeling you don't understand how the game is played,

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11-28-2009, 02:33 AM	#2
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	I knew the book was a bit short on references. I suppose this is another small point against it.

11-28-2009, 08:12 AM	#3
Celsus Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Singapore Posts: 2,875	Pygmy is not a race or ethnicity or population group. Pygmy if anything, is a biological condition (with pejorative connotations) - there are numerous different, unrelated groups in Asia and Africa with completely different cosmogonies so if Acharya's nonsense has any credence, which 'pygmies' is she referring to? Or are they all related to this ancient global civilisation? Relying on colonial stereotypes for "scholarship" is really, really piss poor - this must be near the bottom of the barrel surely.

11-28-2009, 09:09 AM	#4
ApostateAbe Contributor Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: MT Posts: 10,656	It is fun to speculate at what it would take from Acharya S for the commitment of Dave31 to begin to slide.

11-29-2009, 03:04 AM	#7
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	That really takes the cake. Let's have a good, loud laugh at her expense. Her alleged world-spanning civilization would have to have left behind a LOT of artifacts and archeological sites. Where are those long-gone Pygmy cities? Complete with graveyards with lots of skeletons of their former inhabitants. As to the Pygmies' claims, can one be sure that they are not teasing Western travelers with tall tales? Especially Western travelers who seem gravely serious.

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