aa5874

I have already addressed the claim that Marcion had the so-called Pauline letters.

Again, MARCION was most likely dead before the Pauline letters were fabricated.

Again, when it was argued in Against Heresies 2 that Jesus was crucified at about the age of 50 years [ c 49 CE] after being about 30 years old in the 15th year of Tiberius [ c 29 CE] then the original author of "Against Heresies" 2.22 could NOT have known of Acts of the Apostles or the PAULINE LETTERS.

In Acts and the Pauline letters Paul preached Christ Crucified since 37-41 CE.

The so-called Pauline letters were composed AFTER "Against Heresies" attributed to Irenaeus or after 180 CE.

In copies of apologetic writings attributed to Justin Martyr, Hippolytus, Aristides, Theophilus of Antioch, Athenagoras, Minucius Felix, Arnobius, Ephraim, and Tatian there is NO indication that the Pauline writings were known and necessary for the development of Christianity.

I cannot argue that the Pauline letters originally belonged to the Marcionites because it would be without a shred of credible evidence from antiquity.

My arguments are IMPECCABLE.

I no longer accept speculation and imagination as evidence.

My argument is fully supported by the existing available evidence from antiquity.

The Pauline letters to Seven Churches and the Pastorals were fabricated at least after 180 CE.

Duvduv

Kent, how do you know all this?
There is no evidence for the existence of either Paul or Marcion.
There is no evidence that the epistles were ever written by the alleged author Paul, received by anyone, or that alleged communities existed in the first or second centuries.
And the author called Justin, claimed to have lived in the second century says nothing about any writings or epistles in the hands of Marcion who allegedly lived in the same time and town as Justin.

aa5874

I must make it extremely clear that when it was argued in Against Heresies 2 that Jesus was crucified at about the age of 50 years [ c 49 CE] after being about 30 years old in the 15th year of Tiberius [ c 29 CE] then NOT ONLY the original author of "Against Heresies" 2.22 could NOT have known of Acts of the Apostles or the PAULINE LETTERS but the supposed Christians of the Church of Lyons, the supposed Christians of the Church and all the Heretics.

Essentially, for Irenaeus' argument to have survived unchallenged during his lifetime it must mean that Acts of the Apostles and the Pauline letters were UNKNOWN during the lifetime of Irenaeus, the Church of Irenaeus and those whom Irenaeus argued against.


[u]Against Heresies 2.22 In Against Heresies 2.22, it was taught in the Churches that Jesus was crucified at about 50 years old after being 30 years old in the 15th year of Tiberius.

In the Churches, it was taught Jesus was crucified c 49 CE in the time of Irenaeus.

In the Churches at the time of Irenaeus Acts of the Apostles and the Pauline letters were UNKNOWN.

In Against Heresies, Irenaeus used the Gospel to argue Jesus was crucified at about 50 years or c 49 CE.

In Against Heresies, the Apostles, John and the Elders of the Churches preached that Jesus was crucified at about 50 years old c 49 CE.

Acts of the Apostles and the Pauline letters were FABRICATED after "Against Heresies" 2.22 was composed or after c 180 CE.

Against Heresies 2.22 In the Churches c 180 CE it was taught by the Elders that Jesus died at about 50 years when he was OLD MAN.

My argument is completely supported by the present available evidence.

Manuscripts of Acts of the Apostles and the Pauline letters have been found and none of them have been dated to anytime before c 62 CE but as late as c 250 CE.

Toto

There are alternative explanations for all of this, but note in particular that there is nothing in the Pauline letters that is inconsistent with Jesus living at any particular time or until any particular age.

I think it is a problem to subject the church fathers to tests of logic or consistency.

aa5874

No evidence for alternative "explanations" have been presented. I do not consider speculation or presumptions as an alternative "explanation".

Where is the supporting or corroborative evidence for Pauline letters before c 62?

Now, I find your statement without much logic. We are dealing with statements that are put forward as facts by apologetics.

You seem completely unaware of the information both in Acts and the Pauline writings about the time the disciples and Paul preached Christ Crucified.

Peter and Paul preached Christ Crucified before the reign of Claudius in Acts and the Pauline letters.

You seem unaware of the statements in "Against Heresies" about the age of Jesus at the 15th year of Tiberius.

You seem unaware that Irenaeus claimed to be aware of the Gospels according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

In Against Heresies it is claimed Jesus was about 30 years old when he was baptized by John in the 15th year of Tiberius as written in gLuke .


Remember that it is claimed in 2 Corinthians 11.32-33 that Paul was in Damascus in a basket in a window during the time of King Aretas when Paul preached Christ Crucified which is also found in Acts of the Apostles 9.25.


2 Corinthians 11:33 KJV Acts 9:25 KJV The Church of Lyons, the Heretics, and author of Against Hersies 2.22 could NOT have known of Acts of the Apostles and the Pauline letters where the disciples, Peter and Paul preached Christ Crucified at least by 37-41 CE or BEFORE the reign of Claudius.

I have exposed that Against Heresies is a massive forgery and was manipulated by another editor after Irenaeus was probably dead.

At c 180 CE, it was taught in the Churches by the Elders that Jesus was crucified at about c 49 CE under Claudius which demonstrates that Acts of the Apostles and the Pauline letters were NOT yet invented.

If the Church fathers were admittedly not consistent and not expected to be logical then it is far worse than previously thought to argue for early Pauline letters.

Essentially, arguing for early Pauline letters is hopeless, presumptive, without a shred of corroborative evidence in the NT and based on sources that are not consistent and not expected to be logical.

Bernard Muller

to aa,
And where did you get that?

Cordially, Bernard

stephan huller

Irenaeus in Armenian. Proof of the Apostolic Preaching

jakejonesiv

Hi Bernard,

That is a brilliant question. aa just slipped up again as when he dated P46 from 175 to 225 CE, the times of Irenaeus and Tertullian.

Jake

jakejonesiv

Good points.

Duvduv

Jake, please feel free to peruse my last posting here, #822.