creature

I've read different books which makes nearly contradictory claims about the kissing customs in Roman times.

As you all probably know, there are the 5 times that Paul says Greet one another with a holy kiss or words to that effect and once that I Peter says Greet one another with a kiss of love.

The question is to what degree this was similar and to what degree different from the surrounding Greco-Roman culture.

stephan huller

You're full of questions. I heard that kissing was instituted so that men could smell the wine on women's lips and know that they were drunk. It's been so long that I don't know if the source was Bob Guccione but that's what I heard.

DCHindley

Stephan may have been imbibing there himself.

Some while back, one fellow had a web site about eroticism/sex in the Greco-Roman world. There was a link to a page where one gentleman of noble rank wrote to another of similar rank and told him about the kinds of things prostitutes would do with you.

What struck me was that his description of "soul kissing" was the high point of the account. It wasn't the intercourse or the receipt of oral sex (although both are mentioned) that was the highlight, it was kissing. I went away with the impression that kissing, or carousing with prostitutes, was not the norm among the upper crust.

While the link long ago wend dead, I believe the source was Ovid's Ars Amatoria.

DCH

creature

I come with questions, because, of those things I think I know, why argue them to those unlikely to believe? So, when I post, I wish to gather more information, or at least evaluate an argument.

Toto

Holy_kiss has a wikipedia entry.

Juststeve

creature:

Why do you think the people around here are unlikely to believe? Have you no confidence in the evidence you have to present? Or, is it that you doubt our willingness to follow your evidence where it leads?

Steve

credoconsolans

There are images from the walls of Herculaneum or Pompeii - I forget which - which show a man and woman kissing.

From what I've read (I think it was in Roman Sex (or via: amazon.co.uk)), fellatio and cunnilingus were taboo things for 'respectable' people to do in ancient Rome because it 'soiled' the mouth and the mouth was used for kissing greetings.

mountainman

According to The Gospel of Philip Jesus often kissed Mary. However the translators can't tell us exactly where Jesus often kissed Mary. This has been a question on my mind now for some time. Exactly where Jesus often kissed Mary Magdalene is emminently questionable. The coptic text of the source document known as the Gospel of Philip is reported to be damaged at that precise place. I would hate to think it was purposefully damaged at that point.

Poetically, the translators have often opted for "her mouth". Other more conservative alternatives mooted have been .... On her forehead on her cheek on her lips This list is of course not comprehensive. Do we have an image of the coptic page at that precise spot? I for one would love to know exactly where Jesus often kissed Mary.

Here are some alternative translations of the passage in question:

(1.1) English Translation by Wesley W. Isenberg = And the companion of the [...] Mary Magdalene. [...] loved her more than all the disciples, and used to kiss her often on her mouth.

(1.2) English Translated by Anton Teplyy and Dr.Mikhail Nikolenko (2002) = The Lord loved her more than He loved all other disciples and often kissed her on her mouth.

(1.3) English Translation and Notes by Paterson Brown = The [Lord loved] Mariam more than [all the (other)] Disciples, [and he] kissed her often on her [mouth].

creature

the kissing customs in the church seemed to be different in different geographical areas.

In the East, people in the churches kissed both men and women.

In Rome or the West, at least as is reported by Justin Martyr, they segregated by sex and kissed, men with men and women women.

(Even to this day, the Orthodox have retained kissing while the Catholics tended to drop it, though gradually.)

and they commonly kissed on the mouth, but over time, ecclesiastical authority discouraged that . . . So mouth would be an excellent guess for the original text, together with the suppression of male-female kissing being a motive for obliterating a word here.

Is there a difference in meaning between kissing on the lips and kissing on the mouth, if I may ask? How is kissing on the lips more conservative--simply because it means that kissing on the mouth might be a French kiss and kissing on the lips is not French kissing?