John Kesler

I thought that members of this forum would be interested to know that the apologist "J.P. Holding" appears in a series of videos, freely available for viewing on You Tube:

Ben C Smith

That second video has a funny bit:

There's so much to say in this essay I actually recommend reading it.

I actually recommend reading it.... Hmmm. Seems the very least one could recommend with regard to an essay.

Ben.

Vincent Guilbaud

The Real Jesus

First everyone should be aware that this set of movies are
looking at the real Jesus

Movie 2: Jesus did not claim to be God
Joel:
It is impossible the early christians made up these things,
especially the divinity,
because it's something that we find throughout the OT Scriptures.
(that the Messiah is the Son of God)


Movie 3: Contradictions in the Gospels
J.P. Holding:
When we look at the Gospels ...
they fit snugly into the category of greco-roman biography,
written specifically to be understood as a form of history,
there's no indication they were written to be understood as mythical or as false
Of course, their authors were 'eyewitness' or rely on 'eyewitness testimony'.


Movie 4: On Miracles
For J.P. holding,
like bishop Meier and many christian theologians who are considered by many as leading historical NT scholars,
the stories of Miracles in the Gospels fit all our historical criterias:
- Multiple attestation
- Coherence (so he was a threat to other priests because he could take their place)
Plus - OT Scriptures prophecies: the Messiah will have Supernatural power
Plus, the first movie has proven Jesus was the son of God,
so Ariel said: If he was the Son of God, he had to performed miracles


Movie 5: On the Resurrection
J.P. holding:
We have to explain two historical facts:
- The empty tomb
- The apparition

Then Crossan who doesn't believe in a real resurrection of the flesh is quoted several times.

Against Crossan and from a rational point of view, Holding gives us the best argument of the movie.:thumbs:
How can Jesus followers have risked everything for a LIE?:huh:
There were certainly other ways to perpetuate Jesus memory, and he gave us some, than this incredible conspiracy.

This is indeed a big hit against the secular thesis of the simple man,
but not for the myth theory:
people can die for their belief, not for their lie...
(thanks for your participation on this thread)

***************************************
Now to answer our friendly member Roger Pearse, in the thread ennui in jesus study
Why am I interested by the study of the historical Jesus?

Because christianity is a big lie and I can't stand people lying and deceiving others.

Because our historical text books need to be updated
to say that Jesus of Nazareth is most probably a fictional character,
a simple Jewish legend.

Because Kids have the right to learn a demystified history.
...

From Christ To Jesus

MiddleMan

This can't be serious? "J.P. Holding", who can't even use his real name, is some sort of credible response to lifetime biblical scholars? A laid-off prison librarian without one day of formal biblical education who bases his knowledge of Greek and Hebrew on software programs?


Gee, I don't know. I'm still trying to figure out why people flew planes into the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, and a Pennsylvania field for a lie. When I get that one figured out, I'm sure the Jesus followers will match up pretty well.

Vincent Guilbaud

No doubt J.P Holding is a scary extremist.
Luckily, nowadays, this kind of modern inquisitor canno't hurt physically anyone.

Still, we shouldn't be blind.
If you make the effort to listen to his speech and forget about all the salvation crap,
you should acknowledge two or three rational arguments.
Sure, the percentage is very low, but not null.
In fact, it's not really lower than N.T.Wright or even J.P.Meier.

MiddleMan said:
Nope.
For these guys, it was certainly NOT A LIE, but THE TRUTH, because they had pure blind faith.
They were really believing that their sacrifice will give them eternal happiness in heaven with 72 virgins,
or whatever their gurus have conditioned them to believe.
Rewards for martyrs

Nope.
Jesus followers would definitively know if their leader has resurrected from the dead or not.
It is not a question of FAITH but a FACT.
If he did not, they were consciously risking their life for A LIE, NOT A BELIEF.

So the story of Jesus followers doesn't match any other story ...
except if their Christ was an heavenly deity, :angel:
or if their Christ did really resurrect.

MiddleMan

We'll leave this thread to discuss "J.P. Holding". If you want to discuss the "die for a lie", take it here:

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=205632

Graceman

JP Holding is his real name. Didn´t you know that...? That was actually his real name to start with. It´s true that he had a different name for many years, but he returned to James Patrick Holding - which again is his real name. Please check your sources better...

All the best,
Graceman

Amaleq13

What are your sources? I believe you are misinformed as his real name is Robert Turkel and J.P. Holding is his online pseudonym.

John Kesler

From "Holding's" Web site, my emphasis:

Graceman

Hmm... I heard him on a radio show a few months ago saying that JP Holding is his real name. I took that as if he actually already had legally changed it back? I can´t remember his exact wording, but I sure got that impression.

If I misunderstood Holding´s statement, I do apologize to you guys.

All the best,
Graceman.