Freethought & Rationalism Archive

hatsoff · 01-11-2008, 05:24 PM

Hi, all.

Thanks to Roger Pearse's wonderful efforts to bring scholarly materials into the hands of the general public, we now have translations of the anti-Marcionite prologues to Mark, Luke and John. In particular, I'd like to look at the latter of the three, the prologue to the Fourth Gospel:

Quote:

The Gospel of John was revealed and given to the churches by John while still in the body, just as Papias of Hieropolis, the close disciple of John, related in the exoterics, that is, in the last five books. Indeed he wrote down the gospel, while John was dictating carefully. But the heretic Marcion, after being condemned by him because he was teaching [Lit. sentiebat: he was thinking.] the opposite to him [John], was expelled by John. But he [Marcion] had brought writings or letters to him [John] from the brothers which were in Pontus.

--author anonymous (ancient), translation by Roger Pearse (2006)

Now, Roger gives his source text as the following:

Quote:

The translation was made from the text published by De Bruyne in Revue Bénédictine 40 (1928), p.193ff.

--Roger Pearse (2006)

Does anyone have access to this journal, and, if so, can they help me figure out what are the underlying sources for the published text? La Revue Bénédictine (Eng. The Benedictine Journal) is a French publication, but apparently also is issued in German and English--but I'm not sure if that extends back to 1928. In any case, even if you only have the French, I'm sure I can run it through a translator, either living or electronic, to read it. My college does not offer access to this journal, unfortunately.

The reason I ask is because I've run into an bit of an oddity. A 1957 issue of Novum Testamentum (Vol. 2, Fasc. 1, Jan., 1957, pp. 1-7) has an article which makes some unusual claims. I reproduce the first page, which is all I can find online, here:

Quote:

On the 28th of December 1956 The Times printed a photograph of the first thirteen lines of St. John's Gospel from this MS which was acquired recently by the Bodmer Library of Geneva. Its date is thought to be about 200 A.D., i.e. at least 100 years earlier than Codex Vaticanus and its only rival Sinaiticus, which was purchased from the Russians for the British Museum in 1933 for £100,000. There is extant a precious scrap of papyrus (in John Rylands Library) which contains a few words of St. John's Gospel, dated about 130 A.D., but this Bodmer papyrus is an even greater treasure, for it is a witness to the text of almost the whole of the Gospel, copied at a date which can hardly be more than 100 years removed from the original dictation. According to the famous "Anti-Marcionite" preface, which is preserved only in a few ancient MSS of the Vulgate, but was derived from a Greek document of the middle of the 2nd Century A.D., and ultimately from the statements of Papias, this Gospel was written down from John's dictation by the hand or Marcion. This brilliant son of the Bishop of Sinope was soon afterwards excommunicated--as the preface tells us--by John; and also by his own father. Half a century later he had become the most famous of heretics. In c. 154 A.D., when, in Rome, he met Polycarp, the faithful disciple of John and martyr Bishop of Smyrna, he had the impudence to remind him of their former acquaintance; for they had both been pupils of the aged Apostle. "Do you not recognise me, Polycarp?" "Yes", he replied, "I recognise you as the first-born of Satan." This expression is found also in the Epistle of Polycarp, in close connection with a quotation from the 1st Epistle of St John, which was also directed against the heretical, docetic, opinions of Marcion, who "denied Jesus Christ to have come in the flesh and did not acknowledge the witness of the Cross."

--Wordsworth, W.A. "The Bodmer Papyrus and the Prologue of St. John's Gospel " Novum Testamentum. Vol. 2, Fasc. 1. Jan., 1957. p.1 (pp.1-7).

You can see that Wordsworth makes a very strange claim: According to him, the prologue tells us Marcion wrote down the autograph of GJohn, in contrast to Roger's translation which tells us it was rather Papias.

I wonder, then, did Wordsworth make a mistake in his interpretation, or did Roger? Or, are they working from two or more variant mss.?

Very curious. Any help would be appreciated.

Toto · 01-11-2008, 06:40 PM

Your source appears to be JSTOR. Do you have access to the entire article? Does it identify W A Wadsworth?

The prologues are on textexcavation.

Ben gives the Latin of the above passage as (text variations noted in the footnotes)

^2ahoc igitur evangelium post apocalypsin scriptum manifestum et datum^2b est ecclesiis in Asia³ a Iohanne adhuc in corpore constituto, sicut Papias nomine Hierapolitanus episcopus, discipulus Iohannis et carus, in exotericis suis, id est in extremis quinque libris retulit; ^4aqui hoc evangelium Iohanne sibi dictante conscripsit.^4b verum Marcion hereticus, cum ab eo fuisset inprobatus eo quod contraria sentiebat, abiectus⁵ est a Iohanne. hic vero scripta vel epistulas ad eum pertulerat a fratribus missas, qui in Ponto erant ^6afideles in Christo Iesu domino nostro.^6b

2 hoc igitur... et datum / evangelium Iohannis manifestatum.
3 in Asia / —.
4 qui hoc... conscripsit / descripsit vero evangelium dictante Iohanne recte.
5 abiectus / proiectus.
6 fideles... domino nostro / —.

This gospel, then, after the apocalypse was written was made manifest and given to the churches in Asia by John, as yet constituted in the body, as the Hieropolitan, Papias by name, disciple of John and dear [to him], transmitted in his Exoteric, that is, the outside five books. He wrote down this gospel while John dictated. Truly Marcion the heretic, when he had been disapproved by him because he supposed contrary things, was thrown out by John. He in truth carried writings or epistles sent to him from the brothers who were in Pontus, faithful in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Toto · 01-11-2008, 07:16 PM

From what I can tell, the Bodmer Papyri do not contain the anti-Marcionite prologues. The prologues are in Latin, and these papyri are in Greek and Coptic. Mr. Wordsworth mentioned the two in the same article, using the claims in the prologue to link the papyrus to ancient times.

aa5874 · 01-11-2008, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Your source appears to be JSTOR. Do you have access to the entire article? Does it identify W A Wadsworth?

The prologues are on textexcavation.

Ben gives the Latin of the above passage as (text variations noted in the footnotes)

^2ahoc igitur evangelium post apocalypsin scriptum manifestum et datum^2b est ecclesiis in Asia³ a Iohanne adhuc in corpore constituto, sicut Papias nomine Hierapolitanus episcopus, discipulus Iohannis et carus, in exotericis suis, id est in extremis quinque libris retulit; ^4aqui hoc evangelium Iohanne sibi dictante conscripsit.^4b verum Marcion hereticus, cum ab eo fuisset inprobatus eo quod contraria sentiebat, abiectus⁵ est a Iohanne. hic vero scripta vel epistulas ad eum pertulerat a fratribus missas, qui in Ponto erant ^6afideles in Christo Iesu domino nostro.^6b

2 hoc igitur... et datum / evangelium Iohannis manifestatum.
3 in Asia / —.
4 qui hoc... conscripsit / descripsit vero evangelium dictante Iohanne recte.
5 abiectus / proiectus.
6 fideles... domino nostro / —.

This gospel, then, after the apocalypse was written was made manifest and given to the churches in Asia by John, as yet constituted in the body, as the Hieropolitan, Papias by name, disciple of John and dear [to him], transmitted in his Exoteric, that is, the outside five books. He wrote down this gospel while John dictated. Truly Marcion the heretic, when he had been disapproved by him because he supposed contrary things, was thrown out by John. He in truth carried writings or epistles sent to him from the brothers who were in Pontus, faithful in Christ Jesus our Lord.

When did John throw out Marcion, in the 2nd century? Marcion was excommunicated around 144 CE, was John still alive?
There seems to be some chronological problems with the passage.

hatsoff · 01-11-2008, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Your source appears to be JSTOR. Do you have access to the entire article? Does it identify W A Wadsworth?

The prologues are on textexcavation.

Ben gives the Latin of the above passage as (text variations noted in the footnotes)

^2ahoc igitur evangelium post apocalypsin scriptum manifestum et datum^2b est ecclesiis in Asia³ a Iohanne adhuc in corpore constituto, sicut Papias nomine Hierapolitanus episcopus, discipulus Iohannis et carus, in exotericis suis, id est in extremis quinque libris retulit; ^4aqui hoc evangelium Iohanne sibi dictante conscripsit.^4b verum Marcion hereticus, cum ab eo fuisset inprobatus eo quod contraria sentiebat, abiectus⁵ est a Iohanne. hic vero scripta vel epistulas ad eum pertulerat a fratribus missas, qui in Ponto erant ^6afideles in Christo Iesu domino nostro.^6b

2 hoc igitur... et datum / evangelium Iohannis manifestatum.
3 in Asia / —.
4 qui hoc... conscripsit / descripsit vero evangelium dictante Iohanne recte.
5 abiectus / proiectus.
6 fideles... domino nostro / —.

This gospel, then, after the apocalypse was written was made manifest and given to the churches in Asia by John, as yet constituted in the body, as the Hieropolitan, Papias by name, disciple of John and dear [to him], transmitted in his Exoteric, that is, the outside five books. He wrote down this gospel while John dictated. Truly Marcion the heretic, when he had been disapproved by him because he supposed contrary things, was thrown out by John. He in truth carried writings or epistles sent to him from the brothers who were in Pontus, faithful in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Okay, this is great... So that means, assuming the initial text given represents a single ms., and the variants a second ms., that the shorter rescention reads thusly:

evangelium Iohannis manifestatum est ecclesiis a Iohanne adhuc in corpore constituto, sicut Papias nomine Hierapolitanus episcopus, discipulus Iohannis et carus, in exotericis suis, id est in extremis quinque libris retulit; descripsit vero evangelium dictante Iohanne recte verum Marcion hereticus, cum ab eo fuisset inprobatus eo quod contraria sentiebat, proiectus est a Iohanne. hic vero scripta vel epistulas ad eum pertulerat a fratribus missas, qui in Ponto erant

(emphasis added)

Any translators? Does this suggest that Marcion wrote down what John dictated?

Toto · 01-12-2008, 01:32 AM

My high school Latin is a bit rusty. It seems that you (or Mr. Wordsworth) think that "Marcion hereticus" is the subject of the bolded phrase, as opposed to the subject being implicitly Papias.

Interesting. But then what do you do with the vero . . . verum? And what is the subject of the next sentence?

Roger Pearse · 01-12-2008, 02:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hatsoff

Now, Roger gives his source text as the following: "The translation was made from the text published by De Bruyne in Revue Bénédictine 40 (1928), p.193ff."

Does anyone have access to this journal, and, if so, can they help me figure out what are the underlying sources for the published text? La Revue Bénédictine (Eng. The Benedictine Journal) is a French publication, but apparently also is issued in German and English--but I'm not sure if that extends back to 1928. In any case, even if you only have the French, I'm sure I can run it through a translator, either living or electronic, to read it. My college does not offer access to this journal, unfortunately.

I have reached the point, I find, at which I cannot find anything unless I was working on it just now. This must always have been an incidental article, and heaven alone knows where my photocopy is now. It's in this house somewhere, and that is all I can say. I wish that I were better organised.

I translated the text from Latin, that I can tell you. Your approach to reading it is the right one -- freetranslation.com is really rather good for French. I usually do it one sentence at a time.

The journal you mention is the right one -- it's still going, and like all major international journals publishes articles in all the languages of scholarship (French, German, English, Italian).

Surely your college library can do an ILL (inter-library loan) for the article? All UK libraries could do this, howsoever small they might be, so I expect yours can. Ask the librarians: they will be delighted to have something out of the ordinary, if my experience is anything to go by.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Roger Pearse · 01-12-2008, 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

verum Marcion hereticus...Truly Marcion the heretic...

Niggle: would it not be better to render 'verum' as 'but' or 'however' here, tho? Possibly 'indeed', but I don't see how.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Roger Pearse · 01-12-2008, 02:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hatsoff

evangelium Iohannis manifestatum est ecclesiis a Iohanne adhuc in corpore constituto, sicut Papias nomine Hierapolitanus episcopus, discipulus Iohannis et carus, in exotericis suis, id est in extremis quinque libris retulit; descripsit vero evangelium dictante Iohanne recte verum Marcion hereticus, cum ab eo fuisset inprobatus eo quod contraria sentiebat, proiectus est a Iohanne. hic vero scripta vel epistulas ad eum pertulerat a fratribus missas, qui in Ponto erant

Literally:

"in fact he described the gospel dictated by John indeed Marcion the heretic, when by him he was rejected by him because he thought different things, was thrown out by John."

However we could read:

"in fact Marcion the heretic described the gospel dictated by John; indeed, when by him he was rejected by him because he thought different things, he was thrown out by John."

But this seems wrong to me because of the word order, which the later punctuation indicates also; the description of the gospel is clearly following on from the discussion of the Exoterica of Papias, and Marcion is then being introduced in a new sentence.

We know that Papias talks about the gospel authors. We don't know much about Marcion and that gospel, except that he didn't accept it (no wonder if he had this history with the apostle's representatives). So the natural order of the words corresponds to what we know about all this anyway.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

hatsoff · 01-12-2008, 08:12 AM

So, without changing word order or adding punctuation (except in the critical spot), and noting all additional words in brackets, I came up with this as a literal translation:

evangelium Iohannis manifestatum est ecclesiis a Iohanne adhuc in corpore constituto, sicut Papias nomine Hierapolitanus episcopus, discipulus Iohannis et carus, in exotericis suis, id est in extremis quinque libris retulit; descripsit vero evangelium dictante Iohanne recte verum Marcion hereticus, cum ab eo fuisset inprobatus eo quod contraria sentiebat, proiectus est a Iohanne. hic vero scripta vel epistulas ad eum pertulerat a fratribus missas, qui in Ponto erant

[The] Gospel John manifested in [the] church by John while still fleshly constituted, as Papias named Hierapolitanus' bishop, [the] disciple John and [the] dear, as explained [for the] people, [in the] last five books [thereto] refered; [he] described indeed [the] Gospel dictated [by] John rightly. Truly Marcion [the] heretic, when after [time] advanced was [facing] disapproval for his contrary feelings, projected [he] was by John. Who indeed writings or epistles to him pertulerat* by brothers [of holy] mass, which at Ponto were

*- I have no idea what this word might mean.

Is punctuation similar between English and ancient Latin? Should we expect a period between "recte" and "verum"? If so, then why is it missing? If not, how does that affect translation?

01-11-2008, 06:40 PM	#2
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Your source appears to be JSTOR. Do you have access to the entire article? Does it identify W A Wadsworth? The prologues are on textexcavation. Ben gives the Latin of the above passage as (text variations noted in the footnotes) ^2ahoc igitur evangelium post apocalypsin scriptum manifestum et datum^2b est ecclesiis in Asia³ a Iohanne adhuc in corpore constituto, sicut Papias nomine Hierapolitanus episcopus, discipulus Iohannis et carus, in exotericis suis, id est in extremis quinque libris retulit; ^4aqui hoc evangelium Iohanne sibi dictante conscripsit.^4b verum Marcion hereticus, cum ab eo fuisset inprobatus eo quod contraria sentiebat, abiectus⁵ est a Iohanne. hic vero scripta vel epistulas ad eum pertulerat a fratribus missas, qui in Ponto erant ^6afideles in Christo Iesu domino nostro.^6b 2 hoc igitur... et datum / evangelium Iohannis manifestatum. 3 in Asia / —. 4 qui hoc... conscripsit / descripsit vero evangelium dictante Iohanne recte. 5 abiectus / proiectus. 6 fideles... domino nostro / —. This gospel, then, after the apocalypse was written was made manifest and given to the churches in Asia by John, as yet constituted in the body, as the Hieropolitan, Papias by name, disciple of John and dear [to him], transmitted in his Exoteric, that is, the outside five books. He wrote down this gospel while John dictated. Truly Marcion the heretic, when he had been disapproved by him because he supposed contrary things, was thrown out by John. He in truth carried writings or epistles sent to him from the brothers who were in Pontus, faithful in Christ Jesus our Lord.

01-12-2008, 08:12 AM	#10
hatsoff Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Rockford, IL Posts: 740	So, without changing word order or adding punctuation (except in the critical spot), and noting all additional words in brackets, I came up with this as a literal translation: evangelium Iohannis manifestatum est ecclesiis a Iohanne adhuc in corpore constituto, sicut Papias nomine Hierapolitanus episcopus, discipulus Iohannis et carus, in exotericis suis, id est in extremis quinque libris retulit; descripsit vero evangelium dictante Iohanne recte verum Marcion hereticus, cum ab eo fuisset inprobatus eo quod contraria sentiebat, proiectus est a Iohanne. hic vero scripta vel epistulas ad eum pertulerat a fratribus missas, qui in Ponto erant [The] Gospel John manifested in [the] church by John while still fleshly constituted, as Papias named Hierapolitanus' bishop, [the] disciple John and [the] dear, as explained [for the] people, [in the] last five books [thereto] refered; [he] described indeed [the] Gospel dictated [by] John rightly. Truly Marcion [the] heretic, when after [time] advanced was [facing] disapproval for his contrary feelings, projected [he] was by John. Who indeed writings or epistles to him pertulerat* by brothers [of holy] mass, which at Ponto were *- I have no idea what this word might mean. Is punctuation similar between English and ancient Latin? Should we expect a period between "recte" and "verum"? If so, then why is it missing? If not, how does that affect translation?

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01-11-2008, 07:16 PM	#3
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	From what I can tell, the Bodmer Papyri do not contain the anti-Marcionite prologues. The prologues are in Latin, and these papyri are in Greek and Coptic. Mr. Wordsworth mentioned the two in the same article, using the claims in the prologue to link the papyrus to ancient times.

01-12-2008, 01:32 AM	#6
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	My high school Latin is a bit rusty. It seems that you (or Mr. Wordsworth) think that "Marcion hereticus" is the subject of the bolded phrase, as opposed to the subject being implicitly Papias. Interesting. But then what do you do with the vero . . . verum? And what is the subject of the next sentence?

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