spamandham

Are you saying Satan didn't know God was just, and that's why he rebelled? Seems like a pretty stupid motive to rebel.

Usually, Christians like to say Satan rebelled because of pride, all the while oblivious to the obvious implication that Satan would not have pride unless that was his nature.

If it is possible for you to sin in heaven, then given eternity, you *will* sin in heaven. If no-one ever does, then it isn't actually possible. That's what "possible" means.

You argue that in heaven no-one will sin, yet they will still have free will - this following your statements that even if God created us without a sin nature, we might still sin because we can change. The cognitive dissonance is epic.

If it is possible for God to set things up such that there will be no sin in heaven and yet there is still free will, then it is possible for God to set things up so that there is no sin on earth, and yet we all still have free will. It would also have been possible for him to set creation up like that from the outset.

SeekingKnowledge

Like love each other physically? Cause I've been wanting to get at your wife for a while... These thoughts aren't a sin there, yes?

To Rhutchin: no response to my repost of my post?

SeekingKnowledge

Why would you say my logic is losing steam.. I know my logic is simple, but you haven't even tried to refute it. You can't just "win" a discussion/argument by ignoring logical points, making snide remarks and senseless jabs, and then declaring yourself the victor..

Apparently only your God has that right.. (and Jesus, and Paul and John and Matthew and Mark and Luke and a few others.. Well really anyone who wrote anything positive about the Christian God or his son on parchment.. But ONLY them, anything else is made by the devil to deceive us)

Johnny Skeptic

By the same token, perhaps you could explain why you believe what you believe. Please start a new thread at the General Religious Discussions Forum and state why you believe what you believe. If you do that, I will start a new thread there and state why I believe what I believe. Readers can rest assured that you will refuse to do that which you asked me to do, which proves that you are intellectually dishonest.

If you refuse to state why you believe what you believe, how can skeptics adequately reply to your arguments?

Please do not make false statements. A web definition for the word "substantive" is as follows:

"substantial: having a firm basis in reality and being therefore important, meaningful, or considerable; "substantial equivalents."

According to that definition, you have refused to reply to many substantive arguments that I have made. The following issues are most certainly important and meaningful:

1 - The flood. You believe that a global flood occured. A few days ago, I told you about a thread about the flood at http://www.freeratio.org/showthread.php?t=259291 at the Evolution/Creation Forum. You made a couple of posts, quickly realized that you were in trouble, and conveniently took the next bus out of town. The claim that a global flood occurred is utterly absurd. In order to believe the claim, a person has to abandon common sense, logic, reason, history, and science.

2 - Inerrancy. Although inerrancy is the basis for most of your beliefs, you have always conveniently refused to discuss it because you did not want to embarrass yourself. Inerrancy is merely an appeal to emotions, and yet you have claimed that Christians should not abandon common sense, logic, and reason. Although inerrantists have accused skeptics of wanting God to act like they want him to act, they (inerrantists) have an emotional need to have God act like they want him to act, and that includes providing Christians with inerrant texts. Inerrantists can easily image a God who kills babies and innocent animals, but for some odd reason they cannot imagine a God who would not inspire and preserve the Bible. If, as many Christians claim, God is not obligated to save anyone, he certainly is not obligated to provide Christians with inerrant texts, which invites the question "Why do you believe that the Bible is inerrant?"

3 - Firsthand, eyewitness accounts. I said:

You conveniently refused to reply to those arguments.

4 - Opinions and speculations. Consider the following:

As you know, a few days ago I started a new thread at http://www.freeratio.org/showthread.php?t=259452 at the General Religious Discussion Forums and quoted what you said. The title is "How is the Bible not the personal opinions of the authors?" You conveniently refused to make any posts in that thread.

As you know, a few days ago I started a new thread at http://www.freeratio.org/showthread.php?t=259383 at the General Religious Discussion Forums and quoted what you said. The title is "A fundie says "Speculation proves nothing and never will." You conveniently refused to make any posts in that thread.

You are obviously afraid to go to the General Religious Discussions Forum because much greater latitude and variety are allowed at that forum than at most other forums. If you do not have any intention of going to the General Religious Discussions Forum to discuss anthing, please say so.

Consider the following claims:

1 - The God of the Bible created the heavens and the earth.

2 - A global flood occured.

3 - The Ten Plagues occured in Egypt.

4 - Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit.

5 - Jesus was born of a virgin.

6 - Jesus never sinnned.

7 - Jesus' shed blood and death atoned for the sins of mankind.

Those are very important claims. Now will you please tell us why those claims are not the personal opinions of the authors, and why the claims are not speculative? Obviously, claims 1, 4, 5, 6, and 7 must be accepted entirely by faith, or rejected. Common sense, logic, reason, science, and history cannot be used to verify the claims. Regarding claims 2 and 3, history and science, including archaeology, do not back up the claims. It is incredible that for years you have claimed that arguments from skeptics are personal opinions, and are speculative. I do not know of any claim that is more speculative than the claim that the Bible is inerrant, with the claim that a global flood occurred running a close second.

Many skeptics are quite interested in the process that led to you rubber-stamping hundreds of Bible claims that do not have any basis at all in science and history.

I will save this post as a Microsoft Word file for easy reference.

Blackclaw

There is a problem in creating a construct of an all powerful god and then attempting to attach kind human attributes to him.

If there is a God why would he be just or caring? The universe shows us an elegant beautiful creation, but it is a harsh environment that will kill us if we venture outside the tiny area in the universe that we know can sustain human life. Why should we think of ourselves as more than just a speck in the universe? Why should we expect a God who create an endless yet somehow expaning universe to pay the slightest bit of attention to us?

Should we believe we are significant because an old book tells us we are? Why should we pay attention to the Christian book and not the Hindu texts or tales of the Greek Gods?

As soon as we try to explain God in terms of him being compassionate or caring about us, we encounter the contradictions to this idea that reality throws at us.

sugarhitman

Thats because critics believe that God somehow is not in control of his own power and can't help but see into the future....he has a choice....he is in control of his own power and not the other way around.

Stephen T-B

"Thats because critics believe that God somehow is not in control of his own power and can't help but see into the future....he has a choice....he is in control of his own power and not the other way around." (sugarhitman).

Wonderful how attributes get piled onto the gods - with just the same freedom as though they were fictional...

The Dagda

No I don't that's why I asked, it would make sense if he was either not in control as much as we'd like to assume, or not omniscient in the way we'd like to assume, otherwise it doesn't. But then OT stuff that's old puts god as practically omniscient, ie he knows all that could happen almost perfectly and all that has happened perfectly. That's why the stories of the flood and Eden make sense, because that's how ancient Hebrews believed God was.

lycanthrope

just an example of what my church members believe and wat i have to deal with..

http://papaphysix.nutang.com/

"...I'm typing in the dark now (thankfully, my keyboard glows in the dark).

everyone is asleep now (i'm tired but i thought i should blog a little to get some things off my mind).

I have been doing quite a bit of reading and research about prophesies in the Bible (100% accuracy based on whatever has happened so far!) and the current affairs. Based on what I discovered and what is happening right now in the middle east, it seems to me that there is probably less than 10 years (gut feeling) before the whole world will undergo the worst period of time in history:

3.5 years of Great Tribulation, where a person (known as the man of lawlessness who will exalt himself above all) and his counterpart (known as the false prophet who will deceive many) will rule the whole world through a world-wide financial, political and religious system. Nearly half the world's population will fall during this period of trial on earth. If it was not restricted to 3.5 years, no one will actually be able to survive it!

details are too much to be given but if you see a great battle happening in Israel, with Israel almost defeated but delivered at the end through God's intervention and there are many people (Christians) who disappear (aka the rapture) and there is a 7 years peace treaty made with Israel and there is the re-building of the third temple of God in Jerusalem, then you know that the end of time is very near because the peace treaty will be broken at the middle of the 7 years to begin the 3.5 years of Great Tribulation.

Nevertheless, I'm not really worried about it cos' I believe that I'm one of the many who won't be around to witness it since I will be caught up to be with God (not because of my own merits but simply because I believe in His way of salvation) but I'm just praying and hoping that many more will come to know of this loving God who has provided the way of escape and has longed for us to know Him, to love Him, to enjoy Him and to experience Him in countless number of ways in life!

though outwardly I'm wearing away because of the demands of life, yet inwardly I'm being renewed day by day through Him who totally understands the deepest and darkest side of me but yet accepts me just as I am in spite of all my failures and weaknesses and creates in me a sense of purpose and direction! what else can I ask for in a friend? YOU are simply the best! "

Blackclaw

Isn't it more likely that human authors wrote the Bible with the intention of showing prophesies as being fulfilled rather then accurately reporting history?

And isn't it a strong arguement against the 100% accuracy rate that the authors of the Old Testament in which many of those prophesies were written, do not believe they have yet been fulfilled?

The battles that are taking place right now in the Middle East are significantly less widespread and devastating then the wars that took place at the birth of Israel, the Six Day war or the 1972 war. Why would this current tragic, but historically minor violence be a sign of anything?

It seems more likely that the author of this account was hoping to see Israel finally victorious against Rome. History took a different turn. It was not the Israelis that brought Rome down.

Only if you are intrepreting the strange story correctly and if it happens to be true. There are a thousand other intrepretations and a thousand other holy books, so it seems rather unlikely that your belief just happens to be the right one.

I dunno, he could send me a birthday card. He could call now and then. Jesus never stops by and visits anymore.