Freethought & Rationalism Archive

schriverja · 06-27-2011, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by simon kole

Quote:

Originally Posted by schriverja

What is the difference in the context of Christian doctrine?

<snipped afterlife stuff>

Ro 6:23 - "For the wages of (Adam's) sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life. . ."

1) One kind of employment brings death as its wages, the other results in eternal life.

2) If you saturated the soil with brine around a rare species of tree protected by the law, there would be two outcomes.

a) death of the tree - inherent consequences of your action (wages)
b) penalty of the law - penal consequences of your action (penalty)

The inherent consequences (wages) of Adam's sin is spiritual and physical (first) death for the human race.

The penal consequences of one's sin is the second death (lake of fire).

Where is the verbiage about the "second death" being the lake of fire.

Because in my view, there exists two distinct (and contradictory) penalties for sin listed in the Bible. Paul's "wages of sin is death". Essentially meaning missing out on the resurrection later. I've never seen Paul write of Hell or an equivalent. He seemed to think that if you died, physically, without accepting Jesus, you were annihilated without the chance to be reborn in the new Heaven. That was your punishment.

The Synoptics, on the other hand talk of eternal punishment (Mark 9:42+) is one example. (This seems to be for breaking the Jewish Law though, not for being born fallen). And it doesn't say "second death" or anything like that. This is where the fact that Jesus didn't actually serve this sentence comes in to play for those who think that substitutionary atonement is an example of Justice (obviously I disagree, as I have state several times).

simon kole · 06-27-2011, 11:15 AM

UNITY OF THE BIBLE

That the Bible is more than an anthology is seen in the correspondences among its many books, which show it
to be a unit. Some of those correspondenes are:

. . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . .OT. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Corresponds to NT. . . . . . . .

Genesis 3:15, promised seed of the woman. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Lk 1:31, 34; Ro 16:20
- - - - - -12:3, 22:18, blessing of all nations through Abraham. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Gal 3:8-9
Exodus 12:6, Passover lamb. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1Co 5:7
- - - - - 13:21-22, pillar of cloud, pillar of fire (God's presence among his people)--Mt 1:22-23, Emmanuel, God with us
- - - - - 14:22-29, baptized into their mediator, deliverer, leader in cloud and sea, depicting submission. . .1Co 10:1-2
- - - - - 20:19 (Dt 5:5), mediator of new covenant. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Heb 8:6-13, 9:15; Gal 3:9
- - - - - 32:9-14, 30-34, intercessor (like Moses and High Priest). . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Heb 7:23-25, 9:24; Ro 8:3-4
Leviticus 1:5, 3:2, 8, 13, blood which cleanses from all sin. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1Jn 1:7
- - - - - - 3:15, once-for-all perfect atoning sacrifice. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Heb 7:27, 9:28, 10:12
- - - - - - 21:10, 21-23, perfect High Priest. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Heb 7:24-28, 9:11
- - - - - - 23:9-11, Firstfuits of the resurrection (harvest of the redeemed) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1Co 15:22-23
Numbers 20:11 (Ex 17:6), rock which was struck (crucifixion), and source of sustenance. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1Co 10:4
Deuteronomy 18:15, 18, prophet like Moses who was to come. . . . . . . . Jn 6:14-15, 7:40, 1:21, 25; Lk 7:19-20, 24:19
- - - - - - - - - 21:23, cursed on a tree. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Gal 3:13
Joshua 1:5-11, prefigure--captain of salvation, leading to possess promised inheritance (salvation). . . .Heb 10:1, 2:10
Ruth 2:20, prefigure--GOEL, kinsman redeemer (Lev 25:48-49). . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Mt 1:21; Gal 4:4-5; 1Pe 1:18-19
Psalm 2:1-2, 7, the Lord's Messiah; Son of God. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Ac 4:25-27; Heb 5:5
- - - - 22:6-8, 18, mocked; cast lots for his clothes. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Mt 27:43; Jn 19:24
- - - - 23, the Lord our Shepherd. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Mt 2:6, 26:31; Jn 10:11, 14
- - - - 34:20, no bones broken. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Jn 19:33, 36
- - - - 40:68, came to do God's will. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Heb 10:5-9
- - - - 45:6-7, 102:25-27, 110:1, Son of Righteousness; eternal; seated at right hand of God. . . .Heb 1:8-9, 10-12, 13
- - - - 69:9, stung by reproaches. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Jn 2:17; Ro 15:3
- - - - 110:4, priest forever. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Heb 7:15-17
- - - - 118:22, capstone builders rejected. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Lk 20:17; Ac 4:10-12; 1Pe 2:7
Isaiah 7:14, virgin birth. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Mt 1:22-23; Lk 1:30-37, 3:23b
- - - - -8:14-15, rock of offense and stone of stumbling. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Lk 20:18, 1Pe 2:8
- - - - -9:6, prince of peace. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Ac 10:36; Ro 5:1; Eph 2:13-16; 2Th 3:16; Lk 1:79, 24:36; Jn 14:27
- - - - -9:7, house of David. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . Jn 7:42; Mt 1:16; Lk 1:32-33
- - - - -28:16, stone in Zion. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1Pe 2:6
- - - - -42:6, a light to the Gentiles. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Lk 2:32; Ac 13:47, 26:23
- - - - -53:12, numbered among the transgressors. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Lk 22:37
- - - - -61:1, office of the Messiah. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Lk 7:20-23
- - - - -61:2, office of the Messiah. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Lk 4:18-21
Jeremiah 31:15, massacre of infants. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Mt 2:17-18
- - - - - - 31:31-34, new covenant in Jesus. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Heb 8:7-13
Hosea 11:1, flight into Egypt. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Mt 2:14
Micah 5:2, shepherd ruler from Bethlehem. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Mt 2:6, 26:31; Jn 10:11, 14; Lk 2:4-6
Nahum 1:15 (Is 52:7), messenger with beautiful feet. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Ro 10:15
Zephaniah 3:17 (Is 63:1) mighty to save. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Eph 1:19, 6:10
Zechariah 3:8-9, 6:12-13 (Is 4:2; Jer 23:5), branch (sheaf) as Firstfruits (Lev 23:9-11) of resurrection. . .1Co 15:22-23
--[note the correspondence among OT books with each other in the above two entries, as well as entries at Ex, Nu]--
- - - - - - - 9:9, 13:7, riding on a colt; shepherd smitten and sheep scattered. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Mt 21;1-5, 26:31-32
- - - - - - -13:1, fountain opened in the house of David for cleansing of sin. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1 Jn 1:7; Heb 9:14
Malachi 4:2, Sun of Righteousness rising with healing in its wings . . . . . . . . . . .Lk 1:78 (Mt 4:23, 8:16, 14:14, 15:30)

Then when you add to these from my post
all the correspondences among the OT books with each other, even though written centuries apart,
as well as all the correspondences of the OT with the NT,

the Bible clearly evidences itself to be a unit, rather than a mere anthology.

schriverja · 06-27-2011, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by simon kole

UNITY OF THE BIBLE

That the Bible is more than an anthology is seen in the correspondences among its many books, which show it to be a unit.
Some of those correspondenes are:

. . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . .OT. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Corresponds to NT. . . . . . . .

Genesis 3:15, promised seed of the woman. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Lk 1:31, 34; Ro 16:20
- - - - - -12:3, 22:18, blessing of all nations through Abraham. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Gal 3:8-9
Exodus 12:6, Passover lamb. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1Co 5:7
- - - - - 13:21-22, pillar of cloud, pillar of fire (God's presence among his people). . Mt 1:22-23, Emmanuel, God with us
- - - - - 14:22-29, baptized into their mediator, deliverer and leader in cloud and sea, depicting submission. .1Co 10:1-2
- - - - - 20:19 (Dt 5:5), mediator of new covenant. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Heb 8:6-13, 9:15; Gal 3:9
- - - - - 32:9-14, 30-34, intercessor (like Moses and High Priest). . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Heb 7:23-25, 9:24; Ro 8:3-4
Leviticus 1:5, 3:2, 8, 13, blood which cleanses from all sin. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1Jn 1:7
- - - - - - 3:15, once-for-all perfect atoning sacrifice. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Heb 7:27, 9:28, 10:12
- - - - - - 21:10, 21-23, perfect High Priest. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Heb 7:24-28, 9:11
- - - - - - 23:9-11, Firstfuits of the resurrection (harvest of the redeemed) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1Co 15:22-23
Numbers 20:11 (Ex 17:6), rock which was struck (crufixion), and source of sustenance. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1Co 10:4
Deuteronomy 18:15, 18, prophet like Moses who was to come. . . . . . . . Jn 6:14-15, 7:40, 1:21, 25; Lk 7:19-20, 24:19
- - - - - - - - - 21:23, cursed on a tree. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Gal 3:13
Joshua 1:5-11, prefigure--captain of salvation, leading God's people into promised inheritance (salvation)--Heb 10:1, 2:10
Ruth 2:20, prefigure GOEL, kinsman redeemer (Lev 25:48-49). . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Mt 1:21; Gal 4:4-5; 1Pe 1:18-19
Psalm 2:1-2, 7, the Lord's Messiah; Son of God. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Ac 4:25-27; Heb 5:5
- - - - 22:6-8, 18, mocked; cast lots for his clothes. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Mt 27:43; Jn 19:24
- - - - 23, the Lord our Shepherd. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Mt 2:26, 26:31; Jn 10:11, 14
- - - - 34:20, no bones broken. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Jn 9:33, 36
- - - - 40:68, came to do God's will. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Heb 10:5-9
- - - - 45:6-7, 102:25-27, 110:1, Son of Righteousness; eternal; seated at the right hand of God. . . . . Heb 1:8-9, 10-12, 13
- - - - 69:9, stung by reproaches. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Jn 2:17; Ro 15:3
- - - - 110:4, priest forever. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Heb 7:15-17
- - - - 118:22, capstone builders rejected. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Lk 20:17; Ac 4:10-12; 1Pe 2:7
Isaiah 7:14, virgin birth. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Mt 1:22-23
- - - - -8:14-15, rock of offense and stone of stumbling. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Lk 20:18, 1Pe 2:8
- - - - -9:6, prince of peace. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Ac 10:36; Ro 5:1; Eph 2:13-16; 2Th 3:16; Lk 1:79, 24:36; Jn 14:27
- - - - -9:7, house of David. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . Jn 7:42; Mt 1:16; Lk 1:32-33
- - - - -28:16, stone in Zion. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1Pe 2:6
- - - - -42:6, a light to the Gentiles. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Lk 2:32; Ac 13:47, 26:23
- - - - -43:12, numbered among the transgressors. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Lk 22:37
- - - - -61:1, office of the Messiah. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Lk 7:20-23
- - - - -61:2, office of the Messiah. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Lk 4:18-21
Jeremiah 31:15, massacre of infants. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Mt 2:17-18
- - - - - - 31:31-34, new covenant in Jesus. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Heb 8:7-13
Hosea 11:1, flight into Egypt. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Mt 2:14
Micah 5:2, shepherd ruler from Bethlehem. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Mt 2:6, 26:31; Jn 10:11, 14; Lk 2:4-6
Nahum 1:4 (Is 52:7), messenger with beautiful feet. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Ro 10:15
Zephaniah 3:17 (Is 63:1) mighty to save. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Eph 1:19, 6:10
Zechariah 3:8-9, 6:12-13, (Is 4:2; Jer 23:5),branch (sheaf) offered as Firstfruits (Lev 23:9-11) of resurrection. .1Co 15:22-23
-------note the correspondence among OT books with each other in the above two entries, as well as entries at Ex, Nu------
- - - - - - - 9:9, 13:7, riding on a colt; shepherd smitten and sheep scattered. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Mt 21;1-5, 26:31-32
- - - - - - -13:1, fountain opened in the house of David for cleansing of sin. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1 Jn 1:7; Heb 9:14
Malachi 4:2, Sun or Righteousness rising with healing in its wings . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Lk 1:78 (Mt 4:23, 8:16, 14:14, 15:30)

Then when you add to these from http://www.freeratio.org/showpost.php?p=6836009 all the correspondences among the OT
books with each other, although written centuries apart, as well as all the correspondences of the OT with the NT,

the Bible clearly evidences itself to be a unit, rather than a mere anthology.

From here:

Quote:

anthology:
–noun, plural -gies.
1.
a book or other collection of selected writings by various authors, usually in the same literary form, of the same period, or on the same subject: an anthology of Elizabethan drama; an anthology of modern philosophy.
2.
a collection of selected writings by one author.

Whether or not later books refer to earlier books does mean it should be treated as one unit written by one author. It just means the earlier books were important enough to a given culture to be quote-worthy. And many of the books quoted in both the NT and the Hebrew Scriptures weren't actually canonized.

IMHO, there are a multitude of viewpoints about many important issues (suffering, law vs. grace, afterlife versus none, etc.) contained in the Bible. I think Mark's Gospel paints a different picture of Jesus than does John's, for instance. I think Paul's view are at odds with many other views in the rest of the Bible. I think that the Gospels and Acts pretty much rules out capitalism in favor of a form of voluntary socialism, yet most Christians (at least in the US) just gloss over this...

In short, I think treating it as a unit creates more problems than treating it as a collection of diverse views written across several tumultuous centuries.

simon kole · 06-27-2011, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schriverja

Quote:

Originally Posted by simon kole

Quote:

Originally Posted by schriverja

What is the difference in the context of Christian doctrine?

<snipped afterlife stuff>

Ro 6:23 - "For the wages of (Adam's) sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life. . ."

1) One kind of employment brings death as its wages, the other results in eternal life.

2) If you saturated the soil with brine around a rare species of tree protected by the law, there would be two outcomes.

a) death of the tree - inherent consequences of your action (wages)
b) penalty of the law - penal consequences of your action (penalty)

The inherent consequences (wages) of Adam's sin is spiritual and physical (first) death for the human race.

The penal consequences of one's sin is the second death (lake of fire).

Where is the verbiage about the "second death" being the lake of fire.

Rev 20:14

Quote:

Because in my view, there exists two distinct (and contradictory) penalties for sin listed in the Bible. Paul's "wages of sin is death". Essentially meaning missing out on the resurrection later.

That is not what it means.

Quote:

I've never seen Paul write of Hell or an equivalent.

Try Ro 2:5, 8-9, 12.

See Ro 8:2, where Paul is set free the law of sin and death, but he died. So he's not referring to physical death.

See 1Co 15:56, where Adam's sin brought the sting of death on mankind, and the law condemns us individually because of our own sin.

Quote:

He seemed to think that if you died, physically, without accepting Jesus, you were annihilated

There is no annihilation in the NT.

Quote:

without the chance to be reborn in the new Heaven. That was your punishment.

The Synoptics, on the other hand talk of eternal punishment (Mark 9:42+) is one example. (This seems to be for breaking the Jewish Law though, not for being born fallen). And it doesn't say "second death" or anything like that. This is where the fact that Jesus didn't actually serve this sentence comes in to play for those who think that substitutionary atonement is an example of Justice (obviously I disagree, as I have state several times).

Just remember, God, as Lawgiver, decides what is justice in his divine court, not us.
He has legislated substitutionary atonement, and, as Judge, has applied it in his court.
We cannot overturn his decree.

schriverja · 06-27-2011, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by simon kole

Quote:

Originally Posted by schriverja

Where is the verbiage about the "second death" being the lake of fire.

Rev 20:14

That is not what it means.Try Ro 2:5, 8-9, 12.

See Ro 8:2, where Paul is set free the law of sin and death, but he died. So he's not referring to physical death.

<snipped to focus on whether or not Paul expected to skip his physical death>

None of the Paul passages mention a Lake of Fire or any other Hell imagery. He seems to thinking of death of the ultimate punishment. That's what I meant by annihilation. Paul also expected to be alive when Jesus returned, and it seems Paul understood it to be an eternal, physical life.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1 Thes. 4:17 NAS

Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

[emphasis added]

The wrath of God Paul refers to time and again seems to be the apocalypse, which pretty much every NT writer thought was imminent. If you can find an explicit reference that shows Paul expected some sort of post-apocalyptic torment for non-believers, I'll concede the point. I just don't see it. The most straightforward reading of Paul implies that Paul was expecting to be swept away before God came and destroyed the earth.

Here's a smattering from different authors that indicate the notions of the nearness of the Apocalypse...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark 13:26-30

26 Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

28 “Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. 29 Even so, you too, when you see these things happening, recognize that He is near, right at the door. 30 Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1 John 2:18

18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that (antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1 Thes 1:10

...that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1 Peter 1:13

13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Quote:

Originally Posted by James 5:7-9

7 Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. The farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rains. 8 You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near. 9 Do not complain, brethren, against one another, so that you yourselves may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing right at the door.

Sheshbazzar · 06-27-2011, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by simon kole

There is no annihilation in the NT.

The NT;

Quote:

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul:
but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.(Matt 10:28)

?

Quote:

If any man defile the temple of G-d, him shall G-d destroy; for the temple of G-d is holy, which [temple] you are. (1 Cor 3:17)

?

Quote:

There is One Lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: (Jam 4:12)

?

Quote:

...destroy them which destroy the earth. (Rev 11:18)

?

Failte · 06-27-2011, 03:18 PM

All you've shown with this very nice list is that later authors referenced earlier works -- this does nothing to show that the bible "clearly evidences itself" as a unit. So the NT references and parallels the OT, it simply shows that the authors knew about, and probably intentionally referenced, older works. It happens all the time. The stories/books are still separate documents collected together.

It is obviously an anthology, one chosen to provide a specific message. Whether you believe it to be written by one author, or accept the provenance of the books as written by many authors, it is still a collection of documents, by definition.

I don't understand why you are so committed to defending the book as "a unit" when it clearly isn't. What difference does that make? It doesn't resolve the obvious contradictions in the text, and it doesn't resolve the logical inconsistencies in the test as compared to reality.

The bible has what, a dozen different accepted canons in evidence today? And hundreds of translations and versions. You can put together charts linking the OT and NT and showing parallels, but that doesn't really 'prove' what you seem to think it does.

It is a 'mere anthology' (and we actually have information about the various commitees and groups who built the canon to show that) and there's nothing wrong with that. Why is it so important? Can the book not have value if it doesn't live up to the "one god-breathed volume" you insist that it is? There are plenty of other inconsistencies and illogical claims to address, and asserting that the bible is one unit --and therefore, what? Deserves some special consideration when judging it?--doesn't really answer any of those questions.

Sheshbazzar · 06-27-2011, 05:48 PM

No matter how many times you re-post that list, it is not going to make your claims any more valid, nor your assertions any more convincing.

simon kole · 06-27-2011, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

No matter how many times you re-post that list, it is not going to make your claims any more valid, nor your assertions any more convincing.

I messed up on posting. I would appreciate posts #202, #203, #208 being removed.

simon kole · 06-28-2011, 06:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

No matter how many times you re-post that list, it is not going to make your claims any more valid, nor your assertions any more convincing.

Nor any less valid, and its purpose is not to convince, but to inform.

06-27-2011, 11:15 AM	#202
simon kole Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: southwest Posts: 1,761	Unity of the Bible UNITY OF THE BIBLE That the Bible is more than an anthology is seen in the correspondences among its many books, which show it to be a unit. Some of those correspondenes are: . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . .OT. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Corresponds to NT. . . . . . . . Genesis 3:15, promised seed of the woman. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Lk 1:31, 34; Ro 16:20 - - - - - -12:3, 22:18, blessing of all nations through Abraham. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Gal 3:8-9 Exodus 12:6, Passover lamb. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1Co 5:7 - - - - - 13:21-22, pillar of cloud, pillar of fire (God's presence among his people)--Mt 1:22-23, Emmanuel, God with us - - - - - 14:22-29, baptized into their mediator, deliverer, leader in cloud and sea, depicting submission. . .1Co 10:1-2 - - - - - 20:19 (Dt 5:5), mediator of new covenant. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Heb 8:6-13, 9:15; Gal 3:9 - - - - - 32:9-14, 30-34, intercessor (like Moses and High Priest). . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Heb 7:23-25, 9:24; Ro 8:3-4 Leviticus 1:5, 3:2, 8, 13, blood which cleanses from all sin. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1Jn 1:7 - - - - - - 3:15, once-for-all perfect atoning sacrifice. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Heb 7:27, 9:28, 10:12 - - - - - - 21:10, 21-23, perfect High Priest. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Heb 7:24-28, 9:11 - - - - - - 23:9-11, Firstfuits of the resurrection (harvest of the redeemed) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1Co 15:22-23 Numbers 20:11 (Ex 17:6), rock which was struck (crucifixion), and source of sustenance. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1Co 10:4 Deuteronomy 18:15, 18, prophet like Moses who was to come. . . . . . . . Jn 6:14-15, 7:40, 1:21, 25; Lk 7:19-20, 24:19 - - - - - - - - - 21:23, cursed on a tree. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Gal 3:13 Joshua 1:5-11, prefigure--captain of salvation, leading to possess promised inheritance (salvation). . . .Heb 10:1, 2:10 Ruth 2:20, prefigure--GOEL, kinsman redeemer (Lev 25:48-49). . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Mt 1:21; Gal 4:4-5; 1Pe 1:18-19 Psalm 2:1-2, 7, the Lord's Messiah; Son of God. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Ac 4:25-27; Heb 5:5 - - - - 22:6-8, 18, mocked; cast lots for his clothes. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Mt 27:43; Jn 19:24 - - - - 23, the Lord our Shepherd. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Mt 2:6, 26:31; Jn 10:11, 14 - - - - 34:20, no bones broken. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Jn 19:33, 36 - - - - 40:68, came to do God's will. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Heb 10:5-9 - - - - 45:6-7, 102:25-27, 110:1, Son of Righteousness; eternal; seated at right hand of God. . . .Heb 1:8-9, 10-12, 13 - - - - 69:9, stung by reproaches. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Jn 2:17; Ro 15:3 - - - - 110:4, priest forever. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Heb 7:15-17 - - - - 118:22, capstone builders rejected. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Lk 20:17; Ac 4:10-12; 1Pe 2:7 Isaiah 7:14, virgin birth. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Mt 1:22-23; Lk 1:30-37, 3:23b - - - - -8:14-15, rock of offense and stone of stumbling. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Lk 20:18, 1Pe 2:8 - - - - -9:6, prince of peace. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Ac 10:36; Ro 5:1; Eph 2:13-16; 2Th 3:16; Lk 1:79, 24:36; Jn 14:27 - - - - -9:7, house of David. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . Jn 7:42; Mt 1:16; Lk 1:32-33 - - - - -28:16, stone in Zion. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1Pe 2:6 - - - - -42:6, a light to the Gentiles. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Lk 2:32; Ac 13:47, 26:23 - - - - -53:12, numbered among the transgressors. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Lk 22:37 - - - - -61:1, office of the Messiah. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Lk 7:20-23 - - - - -61:2, office of the Messiah. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Lk 4:18-21 Jeremiah 31:15, massacre of infants. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Mt 2:17-18 - - - - - - 31:31-34, new covenant in Jesus. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Heb 8:7-13 Hosea 11:1, flight into Egypt. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Mt 2:14 Micah 5:2, shepherd ruler from Bethlehem. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Mt 2:6, 26:31; Jn 10:11, 14; Lk 2:4-6 Nahum 1:15 (Is 52:7), messenger with beautiful feet. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Ro 10:15 Zephaniah 3:17 (Is 63:1) mighty to save. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Eph 1:19, 6:10 Zechariah 3:8-9, 6:12-13 (Is 4:2; Jer 23:5), branch (sheaf) as Firstfruits (Lev 23:9-11) of resurrection. . .1Co 15:22-23 --[note the correspondence among OT books with each other in the above two entries, as well as entries at Ex, Nu]-- - - - - - - - 9:9, 13:7, riding on a colt; shepherd smitten and sheep scattered. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Mt 21;1-5, 26:31-32 - - - - - - -13:1, fountain opened in the house of David for cleansing of sin. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1 Jn 1:7; Heb 9:14 Malachi 4:2, Sun of Righteousness rising with healing in its wings . . . . . . . . . . .Lk 1:78 (Mt 4:23, 8:16, 14:14, 15:30) Then when you add to these from my post all the correspondences among the OT books with each other, even though written centuries apart, as well as all the correspondences of the OT with the NT, the Bible clearly evidences itself to be a unit, rather than a mere anthology.

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06-27-2011, 03:18 PM	#207
Failte Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,405	All you've shown with this very nice list is that later authors referenced earlier works -- this does nothing to show that the bible "clearly evidences itself" as a unit. So the NT references and parallels the OT, it simply shows that the authors knew about, and probably intentionally referenced, older works. It happens all the time. The stories/books are still separate documents collected together. It is obviously an anthology, one chosen to provide a specific message. Whether you believe it to be written by one author, or accept the provenance of the books as written by many authors, it is still a collection of documents, by definition. I don't understand why you are so committed to defending the book as "a unit" when it clearly isn't. What difference does that make? It doesn't resolve the obvious contradictions in the text, and it doesn't resolve the logical inconsistencies in the test as compared to reality. The bible has what, a dozen different accepted canons in evidence today? And hundreds of translations and versions. You can put together charts linking the OT and NT and showing parallels, but that doesn't really 'prove' what you seem to think it does. It is a 'mere anthology' (and we actually have information about the various commitees and groups who built the canon to show that) and there's nothing wrong with that. Why is it so important? Can the book not have value if it doesn't live up to the "one god-breathed volume" you insist that it is? There are plenty of other inconsistencies and illogical claims to address, and asserting that the bible is one unit --and therefore, what? Deserves some special consideration when judging it?--doesn't really answer any of those questions.

06-27-2011, 05:48 PM	#208
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	No matter how many times you re-post that list, it is not going to make your claims any more valid, nor your assertions any more convincing.

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