Freethought & Rationalism Archive

andrewcriddle · 10-12-2007, 10:32 AM

The Sibylline Oracles Book VIII lines 284-330 are relevant see
http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/sib/sib10.htm
http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/sib/sib15.htm THE SIBYLLINE ACROSTIC
This Appendix has a (very) paraphrastic translation which preserves the effect in English

Quote:

Judgment at hand, the earth shall sweat with fear
Eternal King, the Judge shall come on high;
Shall doom all flesh; shall bid the world appear
Unveiled before his throne. Him every eye
Shall, just or unjust, see in majesty.

Consummate time shall view the saints assemble,
His own assessors; and the souls of men
Round the great judgment seat shall wail and tremble
In fear of sentence. And the green earth then
Shall turn to desert; they that see that day
To moles and bats their gods shall cast away.

Sea, earth, and heaven, and hell's dread gates shall burn;
Obedient to their call, the dead return;
Nor shall the Judge unfitting doom discern;

Of chains and darkness to each wicked soul;
For them that have done good, the starry pole.

Gnashing of teeth, and woe and fierce despair
Of such as hear the righteous Judge declare
Deeds long forgot, which that last day shall bare.

Then, when each darkened breast he brings to sight,
Heaven's stars shall fall; and day be turned to night;
Effaced the sun-ray, and the moon's pale light.

Surely the valleys he on high shall raise;
All hills shall cease, all mountains turn to plain;
Vessel shall no more pass the watery ways;
In the dread lightning parching earth shall blaze,
Ogygian rivers seek to flow in vain;
Unutterable woe the trumpet blast,
Re-echoing through the ether, shall forecast.

Then Tartarus shall wrap the world in gloom,
High chiefs and princes shall receive their doom,
Eternal fire and brimstone for their tomb.

Crown of the world, sweet Wood, salvation's horn,
Rearing its beauty, shall for man be born;
O Wood, that saints adore, and sinners scorn!
So from twelve fountains shall its light be poured;
Staff of the Shepherd, a victorious sword.

This seems to put the use of Fish/IChThUS as a Christian symbol back into the 2nd century.

Andrew Criddle

Clivedurdle · 10-12-2007, 11:56 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sibylline_oracles

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sibyl

Wow, someone invents an acrostic and uses a traditional verse form about people who probably sat in volcanic fumes.

I am not saying the Jesus Christ etc thing does not exist!

I am reacting to that explanation of the fish symbol with extreme doubt!

Quote:

Theophilus introduces these lines (thirty-five in number in the Greek) with the following words: "Now the Sibyl, who among the Greeks and other nations was a prophetess, in the beginning of her prophecy upbraids the race of me

Theophilus, as an alleged Christian is here lying. Which Sybil does he mean? Methinks it was a party game to make up oracles.

Quote:

The number of Sibyls

Like Heraclitus, Plato speaks of only one Sibyl, but in course of time the number increased to nine, with a tenth, the Tiburtine Sibyl, probably Etruscan in origin, added by the Romans.

According to Lactantius' Divine Institutions (i.6, 4th century AD, quoting from a lost work of Varro, 1st century BC) these ten sibyls were those who follow. Of them, the three most famous sibyls throughout their long career were the Delphic, the Erythraean and the Cumaean. Not all the Sibyls in the following list were securely identified with an oracular shrine, and in the vague and shifting Christian picture there is some overlap.

andrewcriddle · 10-13-2007, 03:07 AM

See also Tertullian On Baptism http://www.tertullian.org/articles/e...text_trans.htm

Quote:

But we,
being little fishes, as Jesus Christ is our great Fish, begin our
life in the water, and only while we abide in the water are we safe
and sound

Quote:

sed nos
pisciculi secundum IChThUS nostrum Iesum Christum in aqua
nascimur, nec aliter quam in aqua permanendo salvi sumus

And the Inscription of Abercius
http://www.earlychristianwritings.co.../abercius.html

Quote:

and set before me for food the fish from the fountain, mighty and stainless (whom a pure virgin grasped),

Andrew Criddle

Clivedurdle · 10-13-2007, 03:36 AM

I will repeat myself. I have no problem that the church fathers gave these explanations - they did.

But they also introduced 153 into the ideas.

Their explanations would therefore seem at least to be misleading, especiallly as one site has the phrase "the god Jesus Christ."

Clivedurdle · 10-13-2007, 03:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

See also Tertullian On Baptism http://www.tertullian.org/articles/e...text_trans.htm

Quote:

But we,
being little fishes, as Jesus Christ is our great Fish, begin our
life in the water, and only while we abide in the water are we safe
and sound

And the Inscription of Abercius
http://www.earlychristianwritings.co.../abercius.html

Quote:

and set before me for food the fish from the fountain, mighty and stainless (whom a pure virgin grasped),

Andrew Criddle

Are we so sure Tertullian did not believe that literally?:devil1:

Baptism makes a lot of sense if you take that track!

ph2ter · 10-15-2007, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Clivedurdle wrote:
Sorry, that is incredibly circular!

Why did the gospel writer(s) think these symbols were important? What are the beliefs, the archetypes, the myths that lead to stories about bellies of whales, and then getting them repeated but changed in the passion story - in a similar fashion to West Side Story being a rewrite of Romeo and Juliet?

For just as Jonah was in the belly of the huge fish for three days and three nights, so the Son of Man will be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights.

Matthew there says that Christ after being in the hearth of the earth for three days arised, meaning that he was born again.
Paul also says that in baptism, people die like Christ, and are born again like Christ.
In the ritual of baptism the water immersion is required, because people before are born, live in a mother's womb immersed in a water. This is similar being in the hearth of the earth or being in a cave, like Christ was. Fish symbolizes vulva and every person must pass through the vulva to be born.
So, water and fish are symbols of rebirth, which is in the center of Christian religion. That symbols predate Christianity, but it is not at all strange why Cristianity took them.

andrewcriddle · 10-27-2007, 05:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

The Sibylline Oracles Book VIII lines 284-330 are relevant see
http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/sib/sib10.htm
http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/sib/sib15.htm THE SIBYLLINE ACROSTIC
.............................
This seems to put the use of Fish/IChThUS as a Christian symbol back into the 2nd century.

Andrew Criddle

On looking into this further, this portion of the Sibylline Oracles probably dates from the early 3rd century CE.

I am now doubtful whether IChThUS as a Christian acrostic can be securely dated before around 200 CE.

However, I'm not sure whether the use of the Fish as a pictorial symbolism representing Christ can really be securely dated before 200 CE either.

Andrew Criddle

mountainman · 10-27-2007, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/sib/sib15.htm THE SIBYLLINE ACROSTIC

On looking into this further, this portion of the Sibylline Oracles probably dates from the early 3rd century CE.

The above source cites St. Augustine:

Quote:

Augustine in the eighteenth book of his de Civitate Dei (chap. xxiii) cites the first twenty-seven lines in a Latin translation which aims to retain the acrostic form of the Greek text. He further observes that "the verses are twenty-seven, which is the cube of three. For three times three are nine, and nine itself, if tripled, so as to rise from the superficial square to the cube, comes to twenty-seven. But if you join the initial letters of the five Greek words ({Greek I?hsou~s Xristo's Ðeou~ ui'o`s Swth'r}}) which mean, 'Jesus Christ the Son of God, the Saviour,' they will make the word {Greek i?xðu's}, that is, fish, in which word Christ is mystically understood, because he was able to live, that is, to exist, without sin in the abyss of this mortality as in the depth of waters."

However, you'll find that the earliest source for this
is Constantine's "Oration at Antioch" 325 CE. It is
discussed by Robin Lane Fox (P&C) extensively.

Best wishes,

Pete Brown

Clivedurdle · 10-28-2007, 04:09 AM

What is the earliest version we have of the 153 mentioned in John? And is not the fish symbol common in the Catacombs and early xian burial sites? What date are these?

Xian burials are very different to true gods burials.

Clivedurdle · 10-28-2007, 04:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

See also Tertullian On Baptism http://www.tertullian.org/articles/e...text_trans.htm

Quote:

But we,
being little fishes, as Jesus Christ is our great Fish, begin our
life in the water, and only while we abide in the water are we safe
and sound

And the Inscription of Abercius
http://www.earlychristianwritings.co.../abercius.html

Quote:

and set before me for food the fish from the fountain, mighty and stainless (whom a pure virgin grasped),

Andrew Criddle

Is that a correct translation? Does it not read as our saviour messiah is a great fish?

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10-13-2007, 03:36 AM	#44
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	I will repeat myself. I have no problem that the church fathers gave these explanations - they did. But they also introduced 153 into the ideas. Their explanations would therefore seem at least to be misleading, especiallly as one site has the phrase "the god Jesus Christ."

10-28-2007, 04:09 AM	#49
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	What is the earliest version we have of the 153 mentioned in John? And is not the fish symbol common in the Catacombs and early xian burial sites? What date are these? Xian burials are very different to true gods burials.

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