Freethought & Rationalism Archive

beforHim · 11-24-2008, 01:06 PM

OK, I will respond by saying that the only thing I have read on this issue was Glenn Miller's article. With that being said, yes, these passages do trouble me and my wife- we have discussed this stuff at length. So my response is- seeing as I am not knowledgeable in this area (their culture, and why God would command/allow certain things in these conditions), then I have to basically plead ignorance and say as I said above, it troubles me but not much because I realize my ignorance- hence why I punted to the one scholarly article I read on the subject. Hence I'm going to stop posting here and in any other slavery post until I gain further knowledge on the subject.

Chili · 11-24-2008, 10:50 PM

I wonder what the suicide rate was in those days. Do you think it is bigger than ours today?

Johnny Skeptic · 11-25-2008, 04:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beforHim

OK, I will respond by saying that the only thing I have read on this issue was Glenn Miller's article. With that being said, yes, these passages do trouble me and my wife - we have discussed this stuff at length. So my response is - seeing as I am not knowledgeable in this area (their culture, and why God would command/allow certain things in these conditions), then I have to basically plead ignorance and say as I said above, it troubles me but not much because I realize my ignorance - hence why I punted to the one scholarly article I read on the subject. Hence I'm going to stop posting here and in any other slavery post until I gain further knowledge on the subject.

That is fine. I commend you on your apparent openmindedness.

Please be advsied that if a God did not inspire what the Bible says about slavery, the simple conclusion is that ancient Jews were guilty of ethnic bigotry, which in fact is quite typical of many humans. Why try to find a complicated answer when a simple answer will so?

Johnny Skeptic · 11-30-2008, 07:11 AM

Many fundamentalist Christians use all kinds of arguments to defend what the Bible says about slavery, but they have yet to provide reasonable explanations for the arguments that I have presented in this thread. Various texts leave no doubt that the treatment of Hebrew slaves and non-Hebrew slaves was sometimes much different, and that non-Hebrew slaves were sometimes wrongful abused, including sometimes killed.

arnoldo · 11-30-2008, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Quote:

Originally Posted by beforHim

OK, I will respond by saying that the only thing I have read on this issue was Glenn Miller's article. With that being said, yes, these passages do trouble me and my wife - we have discussed this stuff at length. So my response is - seeing as I am not knowledgeable in this area (their culture, and why God would command/allow certain things in these conditions), then I have to basically plead ignorance and say as I said above, it troubles me but not much because I realize my ignorance - hence why I punted to the one scholarly article I read on the subject. Hence I'm going to stop posting here and in any other slavery post until I gain further knowledge on the subject.

That is fine. I commend you on your apparent openmindedness.

Please be advsied that if a God did not inspire what the Bible says about slavery, the simple conclusion is that ancient Jews were guilty of ethnic bigotry, which in fact is quite typical of many humans. Why try to find a complicated answer when a simple answer will so?

It seems you are forcing modern views on slavery towards a social institution which existed thousands of years ago in a culture much different from our present day society. According to the following academic source there was no moral element to this social institution in the following historical context.

Quote:

Ancient. Slavery existed as a constant factor in the social and economic life of the Near East and Europe throughout the entire period of ancient history, differing greatly in intensity and effects according to time and place. Its validity as a system of labor was never seriously questioned. No attempt to abolish it was made by any ancient government. Nor did any ancient religious body, even Christianity, challenge the right of its believers to own slaves. Greek political philosophy discussed the institution of slavery, but only as to whether it was a condition grounded in natural law or made by man. Ancient slavery differed fundamentally from modern slavery in that the problem of race entered into it but slightly and only in theoretical discussion. Because of its essential differences as a social institution and the differences in the attitude toward it the subject cannot be approached successfully from the abolitionistic-moralistic point of view of the nineteenth century. To the ancient mind slavery was a fixed and accepted element of life, and no moral problem was involved.
http://www.ditext.com/moral/slavery.html

aa5874 · 11-30-2008, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

That is fine. I commend you on your apparent openmindedness.

Please be advsied that if a God did not inspire what the Bible says about slavery, the simple conclusion is that ancient Jews were guilty of ethnic bigotry, which in fact is quite typical of many humans. Why try to find a complicated answer when a simple answer will so?

It seems you are forcing modern views on slavery towards a social institution which existed thousands of years ago in a culture much different from our present day society. According to the following academic source there was no moral element to this social institution in the following historical context.

Quote:

Ancient. Slavery existed as a constant factor in the social and economic life of the Near East and Europe throughout the entire period of ancient history, differing greatly in intensity and effects according to time and place. Its validity as a system of labor was never seriously questioned. No attempt to abolish it was made by any ancient government. Nor did any ancient religious body, even Christianity, challenge the right of its believers to own slaves. Greek political philosophy discussed the institution of slavery, but only as to whether it was a condition grounded in natural law or made by man. Ancient slavery differed fundamentally from modern slavery in that the problem of race entered into it but slightly and only in theoretical discussion. Because of its essential differences as a social institution and the differences in the attitude toward it the subject cannot be approached successfully from the abolitionistic-moralistic point of view of the nineteenth century. To the ancient mind slavery was a fixed and accepted element of life, and no moral problem was involved.
http://www.ditext.com/moral/slavery.html

So, to understand understand God, you have to be ancient.

God is for ancient man.

arnoldo · 11-30-2008, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

It seems you are forcing modern views on slavery towards a social institution which existed thousands of years ago in a culture much different from our present day society. According to the following academic source there was no moral element to this social institution in the following historical context.

So, to understand understand God, you have to be ancient. . .

No, you can be modern, also

Quote:

Gal 3:28
Because all of you are one in the Messiah Jesus, a person is no longer a Jew or a Greek, a slave or a free person, a male or a female.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
There are neither Jews nor Greeks, slaves nor free people, males nor females. You are all the same in Christ Jesus.

King James Bible
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

American King James Version
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

American Standard Version
There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus.

Bible in Basic English
There is no Jew or Greek, servant or free, male or female: because you are all one in Jesus Christ.

Douay-Rheims Bible
There is neither Jew nor Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is neither male nor female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Darby Bible Translation
There is no Jew nor Greek; there is no bondman nor freeman; there is no male and female; for ye are all one in Christ Jesus:

English Revised Version
There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female: for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus.

Webster's Bible Translation
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Weymouth New Testament
In Him the distinctions between Jew and Gentile, slave and free man, male and female, disappear; you are all one in Christ Jesus.

World English Bible
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Young's Literal Translation
there is not here Jew or Greek, there is not here servant nor freeman, there is not here male and female, for all ye are one in Christ Jesus;

2-J · 11-30-2008, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

So, to understand understand God, you have to be ancient. . .

No, you can be modern, also

Quote:

Gal 3:28
Because all of you are one in the Messiah Jesus, a person is no longer a Jew or a Greek, a slave or a free person, a male or a female.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
There are neither Jews nor Greeks, slaves nor free people, males nor females. You are all the same in Christ Jesus.

King James Bible
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

American King James Version
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

American Standard Version
There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus.

Bible in Basic English
There is no Jew or Greek, servant or free, male or female: because you are all one in Jesus Christ.

Douay-Rheims Bible
There is neither Jew nor Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is neither male nor female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Darby Bible Translation
There is no Jew nor Greek; there is no bondman nor freeman; there is no male and female; for ye are all one in Christ Jesus:

English Revised Version
There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female: for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus.

Webster's Bible Translation
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Weymouth New Testament
In Him the distinctions between Jew and Gentile, slave and free man, male and female, disappear; you are all one in Christ Jesus.

World English Bible
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Young's Literal Translation
there is not here Jew or Greek, there is not here servant nor freeman, there is not here male and female, for all ye are one in Christ Jesus;

Are you trying to imply that the fact that slaves and masters are 'one in Christ Jesus' means it does not matter whether slavery exists on earth or not? To many people, that solves absolutely nothing. Slavery is still unjust and repugnant; a benevolent God should condemn it as such (and if he does not, then at best we simply cannot understand Him, at worse He was only apparently benevolent). "Slaves obey your masters". Ephesians 6:5

Sheshbazzar · 11-30-2008, 10:52 AM

How much simpler, how much more humane it would have been, If the old Exodus story about the Hebrews being delivered from their slavery had resulted in their "god" YHWH permanently outlawing and abolishing all involuntary servitude and slavery.
Really kind of funny when one thinks about it in light of all those other "divine" laws, statutes, and ordinances.
It was an "abomination" to YHWH to do something as trivial as take a bite of the wrong thing, or to wear improper clothing, yet it was sanctioned as totally acceptable to hold other human beings, and their offspring in perpetual slavery, to be treated and traded like animals, with a expressly granted freedom to beat and abuse them at will, as being "owned" property.
Why couldn't have slavery also been "an abomination in His sight", as so many other, lesser, entirely trivial matters were?
The real abomination here seems to have been someones ethics and morals.

aa5874 · 11-30-2008, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

So, to understand understand God, you have to be ancient. . .

No, you can be modern, also

Quote:

Gal 3:28
Because all of you are one in the Messiah Jesus, a person is no longer a Jew or a Greek, a slave or a free person, a male or a female.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
There are neither Jews nor Greeks, slaves nor free people, males nor females. You are all the same in Christ Jesus.

King James Bible
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

American King James Version
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

American Standard Version
There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus.

Bible in Basic English
There is no Jew or Greek, servant or free, male or female: because you are all one in Jesus Christ.

Douay-Rheims Bible
There is neither Jew nor Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is neither male nor female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Darby Bible Translation
There is no Jew nor Greek; there is no bondman nor freeman; there is no male and female; for ye are all one in Christ Jesus:

English Revised Version
There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female: for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus.

Webster's Bible Translation
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Weymouth New Testament
In Him the distinctions between Jew and Gentile, slave and free man, male and female, disappear; you are all one in Christ Jesus.

World English Bible
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Young's Literal Translation
there is not here Jew or Greek, there is not here servant nor freeman, there is not here male and female, for all ye are one in Christ Jesus;

Jesus is a 2000 years old fabricated supernatural character. Jesus is ANCIENT.

And the passages you quoted are really from ANCIENT authors.

You have confirmed your antiquity.

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11-24-2008, 01:06 PM	#101
beforHim Regular Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: TX, near Houston Posts: 426	OK, I will respond by saying that the only thing I have read on this issue was Glenn Miller's article. With that being said, yes, these passages do trouble me and my wife- we have discussed this stuff at length. So my response is- seeing as I am not knowledgeable in this area (their culture, and why God would command/allow certain things in these conditions), then I have to basically plead ignorance and say as I said above, it troubles me but not much because I realize my ignorance- hence why I punted to the one scholarly article I read on the subject. Hence I'm going to stop posting here and in any other slavery post until I gain further knowledge on the subject.

11-24-2008, 10:50 PM	#102
Chili Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Alberta Posts: 11,885	I wonder what the suicide rate was in those days. Do you think it is bigger than ours today?

11-30-2008, 07:11 AM	#104
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	Many fundamentalist Christians use all kinds of arguments to defend what the Bible says about slavery, but they have yet to provide reasonable explanations for the arguments that I have presented in this thread. Various texts leave no doubt that the treatment of Hebrew slaves and non-Hebrew slaves was sometimes much different, and that non-Hebrew slaves were sometimes wrongful abused, including sometimes killed.

11-30-2008, 10:52 AM	#109
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	How much simpler, how much more humane it would have been, If the old Exodus story about the Hebrews being delivered from their slavery had resulted in their "god" YHWH permanently outlawing and abolishing all involuntary servitude and slavery. Really kind of funny when one thinks about it in light of all those other "divine" laws, statutes, and ordinances. It was an "abomination" to YHWH to do something as trivial as take a bite of the wrong thing, or to wear improper clothing, yet it was sanctioned as totally acceptable to hold other human beings, and their offspring in perpetual slavery, to be treated and traded like animals, with a expressly granted freedom to beat and abuse them at will, as being "owned" property. Why couldn't have slavery also been "an abomination in His sight", as so many other, lesser, entirely trivial matters were? The real abomination here seems to have been someones ethics and morals.

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