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Old 12-22-2011, 01:30 PM   #31
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Here's how I see it. The Greek orthodox use the form Iesous AND identify themselves as Christianoi. This dates the tradition to the mid-second century. Clement of A uses Iesous and originally belonged to a community called the Chrestoi based in Alexandria which was older than the orthodox tradition which identified itself as Christianoi (because Chrestoi is more original).

While Clement uses the form Iesous he does so because he only spoke Greek. Iesous seems to have been the only name used by Greek speaking Christians. Clement however - like many early Christians - supposes that the name of Jesus derives from an original root which means “to heal.” There are both Greek and Aramaic possibilities here although Clement likely was thinking in terms of a Greek root. Nevertheless Clement also knows that Iesous was the equivalent of Joshua saying the Hebrew name is a “shadow” of the name of Christ (Instructor 1.7)

Now we get into the complicated matter of the use of Jesus in Aramaic and Syriac. Both Jews and the Syrian orthodox use yeshu. The form is strange. Scholars connect the name to Joshua because it is second nature. Yet did it begin as a form of Joshua or was it modified from Isu or whatever form was used by the Marcionites? I have never heard a convincing explanation of how Yeshu was developed from Joshua and why Jesus is never called Joshua in Semitic sources.

The underlying assumption of most scholars is that Jesus was a historical person. Perhaps they'd argue that Iesous was the original name? But even this makes no sense.
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Old 12-22-2011, 01:58 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stephan huller View Post
Now we get into the complicated matter of the use of Jesus in Aramaic and Syriac. Both Jews and the Syrian orthodox use yeshu. The form is strange. Scholars connect the name to Joshua because it is second nature. Yet did it begin as a form of Joshua or was it modified from Isu or whatever form was used by the Marcionites? I have never heard a convincing explanation of how Yeshu was developed from Joshua and why Jesus is never called Joshua in Semitic sources.
But I understand from Mitchell/Burkitt that in the Pesitto and Syriac literature universally (except for Ephraim) use the same exact word, corresponding to Yeshu', for both Joshua son of Nun and the Jesus of the NT (although I believe that some lexicons differentiate them, but that is limited to adding a dalet prefix when spoken (not written) to serve as a relative pronoun or possessive ("Jesus of the annointing" as opposed to "Joshua [son of Nun]"). In other words, Yeshu' IS Joshua in Syriac, regardless of how Joshua is spelled in Hebrew.

I think I'm going to have to finally learn enough Aramaic and Hebrew to be dangerous. So, Stephan, you have - perhaps unwillingly - produced good. :grin:

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Old 12-22-2011, 02:31 PM   #33
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It may be that Ishu is just the Syriac form of Yeshua
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Old 12-22-2011, 07:52 PM   #34
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Although look at this in Wikipedia:

In the Aramaic of the Peshitta some manuscripts distinguish Joshua Yeshua (ܝܶܫܽܘܥ) and Jesus Dyeshua (ܕ݁ܝܶܫܽܘܥ) , however the Lexicon of William Jennings gives the same form Yeshua for both names.[30][31] The Hebrew final letter ayin ע is equivalent to final ܥ in Syriac.

and this:

The name Yeshu is unknown in archeological sources and inscriptions
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Old 12-22-2011, 08:19 PM   #35
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I think I have sorted out how Yeshu was established. The Syrian Christians took over the Hebrew Yeshua and dropped the final vowel as is common in that language:

http://books.google.com/books?id=ikg...ch&f=false

The rabbinic tradition only learned about Jesus from Syriac sources and thus named him Yeshu in their literature likely in the third or fourth centuries. The question now is whether a similar pattern can account for Isu among Marcionites.
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Old 12-22-2011, 08:36 PM   #36
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Discussion of the Semitic preservation of the name Jesus in Luxenberg's book:

http://books.google.com/books?id=227...0jesus&f=false
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Old 12-22-2011, 08:46 PM   #37
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Every tongue possesses its shibboleth and its sibboleth, by means of which even brother or father may be excised.
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Old 12-22-2011, 11:54 PM   #38
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Another possibility - the Hebrew verb asah עָשָׂה. Goranson argued that it was the root behind the term Essene. There is an interesting name in the Book of Ezra - Yaasu = וְיַעֲשֹׂו (Ezra 10:37). The name derives from the past collective 'the will make' (cf. Hos 13:2 וַיַּעְשׂ֣וּ). The future collective is far more interesting יַעֲשׂ֤וּ = ya'asu

Quote:
Exodus 12:47
BIB: עֲדַ֥ת יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל יַעֲשׂ֥וּ אֹתֽוֹ׃
NAS: of Israel are to celebrate this.
KJV: of Israel shall keep it.
INT: the congregation of Israel celebrate

Exodus 27:8
BIB: בָּהָ֖ר כֵּ֥ן יַעֲשֽׂוּ׃ ס
NAS: so they shall make [it].
KJV: thee in the mount, so shall they make [it].
INT: the mountain so shall make

Exodus 28:4
BIB: הַבְּגָדִ֜ים אֲשֶׁ֣ר יַעֲשׂ֗וּ חֹ֤שֶׁן וְאֵפוֹד֙
NAS: which they shall make: a breastpiece
KJV: And these [are] the garments which they shall make; a breastplate,
INT: are the garments which shall make A breastpiece and an ephod

Exodus 31:11
BIB: אֲשֶׁר־ צִוִּיתִ֖ךָ יַעֲשֽׂוּ׃ פ
NAS: for the holy place, they are to make [them] according to all
KJV: [place]: according to all that I have commanded thee shall they do.
INT: i have commanded make

Exodus 36:6
BIB: וְאִשָּׁ֗ה אַל־ יַעֲשׂוּ־ ע֛וֹד מְלָאכָ֖ה
NAS: any longer perform work
KJV: nor woman make any more work
INT: woman no perform any work

Numbers 5:6
BIB: אִשָּׁ֗ה כִּ֤י יַעֲשׂוּ֙ מִכָּל־ חַטֹּ֣את
NAS: or woman commits any of the sins
KJV: or woman shall commit any sin
INT: woman When commits all manner of the sins

Numbers 9:11
BIB: בֵּ֥ין הָעַרְבַּ֖יִם יַעֲשׂ֣וּ אֹת֑וֹ עַל־
NAS: at twilight, they shall observe it; they shall eat
KJV: at even they shall keep it, [and] eat
INT: at twilight shall observe with unleavened

Numbers 9:12
BIB: חֻקַּ֥ת הַפֶּ֖סַח יַעֲשׂ֥וּ אֹתֽוֹ׃
NAS: of the Passover they shall observe it.
KJV: of the passover they shall keep it.
INT: the statute of the Passover shall observe

Numbers 32:25
BIB: לֵאמֹ֑ר עֲבָדֶ֣יךָ יַעֲשׂ֔וּ כַּאֲשֶׁ֥ר אֲדֹנִ֖י
NAS: Your servants will do just
KJV: Thy servants will do as my lord
INT: saying your servants will do my lord

Judges 14:10
BIB: כִּ֛י כֵּ֥ן יַעֲשׂ֖וּ הַבַּחוּרִֽים׃
NAS: for the young men customarily did this.
KJV: for so used the young men to do.
INT: for this did the young

1 Samuel 2:14
BIB: בּ֑וֹ כָּ֚כָה יַעֲשׂ֣וּ לְכָל־ יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל
NAS: for himself. Thus they did in Shiloh
KJV: took for himself. So they did in Shiloh
INT: the priest Thus did to all the Israelites

1 Samuel 13:19
BIB: פְלִשְׁתִּ֔ים פֶּ֚ן יַעֲשׂ֣וּ הָעִבְרִ֔ים חֶ֖רֶב
NAS: the Hebrews will make swords
KJV: Lest the Hebrews make [them] swords
INT: the Philistines Otherwise will make the Hebrews swords

Esther 5:14
BIB: וְכָל־ אֹֽהֲבָ֗יו יַֽעֲשׂוּ־ עֵץ֮ גָּבֹ֣הַּ
NAS: high made and in the morning
KJV: unto him, Let a gallows be made of fifty
INT: and all his friends made gallows high

Psalm 106:19
BIB: יַעֲשׂוּ־ עֵ֥גֶל בְּחֹרֵ֑ב
NAS: They made a calf in Horeb
KJV: They made a calf in Horeb,
INT: made A calf Horeb

Ecclesiastes 2:3
BIB: הָאָדָם֙ אֲשֶׁ֤ר יַעֲשׂוּ֙ תַּ֣חַת הַשָּׁמַ֔יִם
NAS: of men to do under
KJV: of men, which they should do under the heaven
INT: of men after to do under heaven

Isaiah 5:10
BIB: צִמְדֵּי־ כֶ֔רֶם יַעֲשׂ֖וּ בַּ֣ת אֶחָ֑ת
NAS: of vineyard will yield [only] one
KJV: of vineyard shall yield one
INT: acres of vineyard will yield bath one

Ezekiel 33:31
BIB: וְאוֹתָ֖ם לֹ֣א יַֽעֲשׂ֑וּ כִּֽי־ עֲגָבִ֤ים
NAS: your words, but they do not do them, for they do
KJV: thy words, but they will not do them: for with their mouth
INT: your words not do for the lustful

Ezekiel 43:25
BIB: הַצֹּ֖אן תְּמִימִ֥ים יַעֲשֽׂוּ׃
NAS: without blemish, shall be prepared.
KJV: [for] a sin offering: they shall also prepare a young
INT: the flock without shall be prepared

Ezekiel 43:27
BIB: הַשְּׁמִינִ֜י וָהָ֗לְאָה יַעֲשׂ֨וּ הַכֹּהֲנִ֤ים עַל־
NAS: the priests shall offer your burnt offerings
KJV: the priests shall make your burnt offerings
INT: the eighth and onward shall offer the priests on

Ezekiel 46:15
BIB: [וַעָשׂוּ כ] (יַעֲשׂ֨וּ ק) אֶת־
NAS: Thus they shall provide the lamb,
KJV: Thus shall they prepare the lamb,
INT: accomplish the lamb offering

Zephaniah 3:13
BIB: יִשְׂרָאֵ֜ל לֹֽא־ יַעֲשׂ֤וּ עַוְלָה֙ וְלֹא־
NAS: of Israel will do no
KJV: of Israel shall not do iniquity,
INT: of Israel no will do iniquity no
I find it particularly intriguing that I have found a Isu sounding name developed from the collective plural of a Hebrew verb.
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Old 12-23-2011, 01:00 AM   #39
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More on the Hebrew name Jaasu.

Quote:
"The LXX. clearly had 'Jaasu', which they mistook for a verb and rendered 'and they did or made' (καὶ ἐποίησαν) regardless of the lack of meaning." http://books.google.com/books?id=lWN...ook%22&f=false
Ezra 10:37 LXX reads "Μαθανια Μαθαναι καὶ ἐποίησαν"
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Old 12-23-2011, 01:11 AM   #40
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It should be noted that the Hebrew term for 'the Maker' (i.e. the maker of heaven and earth etc.) derives from this same root עשֵׂה = oseh. Ephrem explicitly says that the Marcionites never call Jesus 'the Maker.' The God of the Jews is called 'the Maker' throughout most of Book One of Against Marcion (see above reference too):

Quote:
And Marcion, though he introduced a 'Stranger,' nevertheless, (while) he was crying out all the [time (?)] about the [. . .] of the 'Maker' and about His preaching and about the people that is His, yet our Scriptures that are in the hands of the Marcionites were bearing witness on [our] behalf. But the blasphemies [of] the Marcion[ites]—it is [the books of] the Marcionites only that bear witness to them.

The followers [of Marcion] therefore name our God 'the Just One' : yet we see that His worshippers are afflicted in this world, and His prophets were ... in the region of the Maker . . . but on the other hand (lit. side) we see that the unjust and the doers of evil enjoy themselves, and He is found to be good towards evil men and something different towards those who are His own. For He promises enjoyments to those who keep His commandments, and lo ! afflictions surround them. And He said concerning the unjust 'Cursed art thou.' . . . And he who is blessed according to the Law runs on foot in front of him who is cursed in the Scriptures ; for Elijah the prophet ran in front of Ahab the unjust, while Ahab the . . . was sitting in his chariot. [P. 55.] Again, the prophets of Baal were battening at Jezebel's table, and the true prophets [were] housing themselves in caves.

The followers (?) of Marcion say concerning each of these things, that is, concerning the justice of the Just One and concerning the grace of their own (God), that it did not come and bring relief to the just in this world (?). But [see that] the grace of the Maker [lo,] is extended even over the followers of Marcion. And if they say that an Alien Force is opposed to them, who is it, on the other hand, who is opposed to Mercy ? And, again, who constrained Him that His mercy should afford a covering to Philosophers and Magians and all manner of doctrines ? And (as for) the babes and the seed-corn and the plants and the possessions of the followers of Marcion, who causes them to grow ? And who sends down the rain for them, or who causes the sun to shine for them ? Who commands the earth to bear them, and governs the sky for them ? Thou seest that all the grace of our Maker is (shown) towards the followers of Marcion and moreover towards those who are ungrateful like them ; but in the case of the righteous and the prophets the contrary of these things (takes place), namely humiliation and ignominy. For Jeremiah the prophet is cast into a miry pit, while Zedekiah, an unjust man, is living in luxury. Or can it then have been the case that an Alien severe One [came and was favouring] the wicked and oppressing the good ?

But it was not the Stranger—who did not exist—that had . . . already announced earthly things to the simple-minded, while, on the other hand, among all of us he taught the likeness of true things by means of his faithful ones and by means of his righteous ones ; by means of these two (methods he taught) two classes of persons, namely the class of the mature (?), and another (consisting) of the simple-minded. For he gladdened the simple-minded with promises of the earth, and oppressed (?) the mature by severe afflictions. But let us see to what our own affliction is like ; is it like that of [the simple-minded] or that of his prophets ? If we are like the prophets in our afflictions, how do the followers of Marcion say that (only) in recent times have afflictions been [P. 57.] announced ? And, again, let us ask the Jews also, that is to say, the Jews and the righteous ones who were among them, Whom ought we to resemble ? [The others] rather than them we ought to resemble.

Let them then look at us and at the righteous, and let them see if we are like them in our afflictions. And if we are like the righteous in our afflictions, it is also the fact that the Law is |xxvii with us. For unto whom was it right that the Law of the afflicted and destitute ones should be given, to us the afflicted and destitute, or to those who even until to-day are expecting to go up to Jerusalem, and are eagerly looking till now for the milk and honey ? Thou seest, therefore, O Marcion, that if in the midst of all this maturity the simple-mindedness of the Jews has not been outgrown (lit. weaned), since these (qualities) still exist in them, how could numerous countries attain to maturity, seeing that one country (i.e. the country of the Jews) with all this exertion was not able to attain to maturity ?

But if the associates of Marcion, whom we have left behind (in our discussion), come and agree with him and say to us, If the Creator was one and knew that Adam would sin against Him, [P. 58.] why then did the Creator create ?—let all the sects (lit. teachings) know that they too are included in this (objection). For why did not their Gods come or prevent (it), so that he (i.e. Adam) should not be created, or so that they might set right and assist that which had been created ? For why did not their Gods prevent the Maker from creating that which is not good ? And if they did not prevent Him at that time, who will send (?) after them to-day ? And perhaps it was for that reason that God caused Adam to dwell for nine hundred and thirty years outside the enclosure of the Tree of Life, in order that it might be seen that there was no other God who could be found to break into the enclosure, which the Just One had enclosed by means of the Cherub and the point of the sword,7 and to bring him (i.e. Adam) in. For if there had been another God more compassionate than this one and stronger than our Maker, he would have broken into the enclosure—which was not then broken into— and would have brought the mortal Adam into the presence of the Tree of Life, that he might eat thereof, so that, just as in consequence of his eating of the Tree of Knowledge we all die, [P. 59.] likewise in consequence of his eating of the Tree of Life we might all live by means of him. But if he remained for nine hundred |xxviii and thirty years outside the enclosure of Paradise and did not find any other God to bring him inside the enclosure of Paradise, and afterwards (God) dissolved him and caused him to return to his dust, and no other God was found to raise him from the dust—acknowledge, O Marcion, the justice of Him who said, I am God and there is none beside Me !

But if Marcion says that the sole reason that the Stranger did not come previously was that at the last his grace might be seen, [let him know] that God had already shown a small measure of grace in connection with His justice, so that His great grace was not deemed strange when it was manifested in its time.

... And if Isu did not send the prophets and the Maker did not send Isu, then from these same sufferings of the prophets Isu [took an example] that he might adorn himself with them in the midst of the world when he came ; because he saw that these very (qualities) were pleasing (lit. chosen) and agreeable to one who loves, he invested himself with them and made use of them, so that he might attract the inhabitants of our world by the humility which was pleasing to them. And if he attracts us by something that is pleasing to us, how can that which is pleasing to us be strange to our nature ? For even if they had not been in the prophets, but are greatly pleasing to our nature (it would equally follow"). Or do they say that he changed our nature and (the nature) of the former prophets ? Who changed their nature ? Was it Isu ? Wilt thou not then tell us that he was in the world ? And if he was in the world, then the world was in him; and if the world was in him, he is the Creator's Son, as the Scriptures say, and he is not the Stranger's Son, as the followers of Marcion erroneously assert. But if he was not in the world,13 who previously sowed in our world the pleasing qualities of Isu ?

Did then the Maker really know that by means of these he (i.e. Isu) was destined to lead created beings astray, and did He give them to us beforehand, in order that we might not go astray [P. 72.] after Isu when he came ? And where is that (passage which |xxxiii says) that 'there is none that knoweth the Father save the Son' ?14 [P. 72.] And again, that which says that 'none of the princes of the world knew him' ? 15 And if it be that because the Maker did know He announced them to us beforehand, did He not thereby really lead us astray so that we should think concerning Isu that he was from Him, when he announced these very things which He also had announced to us ? But let us suppose that these things belong to Isu ; can it be that he actually changed the prophets, and that they were then able to fulfil these commandments ? And if he actually changed the prophets, how can he announce to us that we should accomplish them, when he has not yet changed our nature ? In virtue of the fact that he incites us by 'Blessed are the humble in their spirit,' 16 will he really change our nature ? And if five hundred Beatitudes do not change our nature, if he utters (lit. gives) them we are not able to fulfil in this nature that which we are not able to fulfil in this nature without a change. Or is it because he cannot that he does not change it ? Or because he does not wish ? If he cannot, how was he able to change the nature of the former ones ? And if, though he was able, he really did not wish, how did he consent to change (that) of the former ones ? And if he [P. 73.] did not wish to change (them), why will he change us by means of laws which are strange to our nature ? But if the laws are akin to our nature, and our nature to the laws, where is that' Strangeness ' of the Stranger ? . . .

That thou mayest know that these others also [agree] with [l. 26.] these former ones which I have enumerated to thee [I will cite] the words of David, when he says,17 'My knees are weak through fasting, and my flesh is wasted for want of ointment,' and Job says,18 'Sackcloth have I girded on my skin, and I have sprinkled my head with dust.' And again David says,19 'I have made sackcloth my raiment.' Who therefore remains to the Stranger ? |xxxiv [P. 74.] . . . of those things which Isu commanded there is found in our Scriptures ; so that if he preached mercy, it is found in David . . . mercy is more (?) pleasing to Him than fasting from bread (?), for he says,20 ' This is not the fast which I have chosen, saith the LORD, that thou shouldst bend thy neck like a rush and spread out sackcloth and ashes for thyself, but this is the fast which I have chosen, saith the LORD, that thou shouldst loose the bonds of iniquity, and give thy bread to the hungry, and bring the alien into thine house.' And, again, if fasting is pleasing to the Stranger, lo, Elijah and Elishah and the sons of the prophets (are examples thereof), and lo, John, who fasted in his own days (i.e. in the days of the Stranger) ! If then these (persons) are pleasing [to the Just God], as also they are indeed pleasing to Him, why does He torment His friends here ? Either there is something compassionate [in Him and gracious] to these who are here tormented ; or if there is nothing [He is] very wicked, and they are wronged [by Him] on whose account they are here tormented ! And how [is manifested] the Justice of the Just One ?

[P.75] [See] also, O Marcion, that [these] two Gods, namely the Maker and the Stranger, are both of them angry at the same thing, and take pleasure in the same thing, and are gratified by the same thing. For the Maker is angry at hateful things, and the Good (God) also is angry at hateful things — if it be right to admit that the Good (God) is angry with those who have committed no offence whatever against Him. And so also both of them are gratified by good things, for ... it is evident that they are both angry at adultery and theft and other hateful things, and that they are both gratified by sackcloth and fasting and prayer. For what has happened to these two Gods that they should have one will ? Is it not clear that either there is (only) One God, or that they are both One, for as one they both will with one will ?

And that thou mightest know that this is so, the Maker sanctified Moses and sent him to Egypt, and since Moses wished to take his wife with him by force, He (i.e. the Maker) constrained |xxxv him by means of an angel to send her back, that He might show how pleasing holiness is to Him. And the Stranger also acted likewise towards Simon (Peter), although he did not compel him ; and (the fact) that he did not compel him, was it because it did not [become] Him to compel, not only because He is good but also because He is not our Creator ? And again, when the People had been sanctified, He did not allow them to approach the holy mountain because they were turning again to married life ; but the People were standing at a distance, and Moses the holy was speaking, and God was answering with a voice. And again, the disciples also were standing in silence, and Simon only was speaking. And perhaps thou wilt say, Was there not among them John, a virgin, and were not all his companions holy ? (But I reply, Nay—) for here (i.e. at Sinai) also were not the People holy in relation to the Maker ? And Joshua was a virgin, and 22 he (i.e. Moses) was brought in with Joshua only. Lo ! here also it is found that Isu resembles the Maker ; for the Maker sanctified the chief of His prophets, and Isu sanctified the chief of His apostles.

But if on account of the holiness which He preached you [P. 77.] think concerning Him that He is a Stranger, then (are we to suppose that) Elijah was caught up to the heavens of the Stranger? For He 23 would not have taken up and made to ascend to His heavens one who by his holiness wished to be the opponent of the Creator, who wished that by means of marriage the creation should be fruitful and multiply. For by the case of Elijah, so to speak, all the creation of the Creator has been made void. But how could Elijah have been received (into the heavens) on account of that one thing? . . . For the [P. 78, l.14.] priest was not allowed to enter the Tabernacle unless he was sanctified in his body. . . But if that single [virgin] of the [l.38.] Maker had preceded those many [virgins] of the Stranger, |xxxvi it would be right that that Maker who had preceded (the [P. 79. l.16.] Stranger) should be called . . . since there is no other who was before him, so as to enable us to say that he (i.e. the former) was the cause of him (i.e. of the latter), and that this one imitated him, since he was the latter and imitated the Maker. How is he the Stranger ? Since therefore we have found that the prophets are like to one another in humility, and John to all of them, and all of them to Isu, how then can the Stranger, who resembles them all, be strange to them all ? Or can it be that they give the name of 'Strangeness' to that which is similar ? Well, then, the prophets also, who resemble one another, are 'strange' to one another ! And if thou sayest that thou wilt not compare creatures to God — for 'how (?) can creatures who have been humbled resemble a God who has been humbled ?' — (I ask) then, Is it because Isu was humbled whereas the Maker was not humbled that [P. 80.] strangeness arises ? Well, then, according to thy reasoning, because the Father of Isu is not humbled together with Isu who was humbled, the Stranger also, who was not humbled, is strange to His son who was humbled. And if the Stranger who was not humbled is not strange to His son who was humbled, then it is not because one was humbled and the other was not humbled that the Strangeness arises but because Strangeness consists in Strangeness to the nature (of some one). But if Isu who was humbled resembles the Stranger who was not humbled, how much more will Isu who was humbled resemble the Maker who was humbled ! For in what consists the fact that Isu was humbled ? Is it not in this that he was manifested to men and taught them to do what is good ? If this is not also (found) in the case of the Maker, they (i.e. the Marcionites) speak truly. And if not even this was lacking to Him, why do they utter blasphemy by means of the Strangeness which they introduce ? Did He not enter into the abode of Abraham and eat ? And if it was right that we should say that He ate and that He was manifested to Moses and to Elijah and to Isaiah and to Daniel and the rest of the prophets — and that thou mightest not say |xxxvii that He was manifested only to righteous men, whereas the Stranger (was manifested) to sinners—lo, He was manifested [P. 81.] to the whole People without exception! And if thou sayest that they were righteous, (I answer) Lo, on account of their iniquity they all fell in the wilderness and, except in the case of two, they did not enter into the land of promise. We have thus compared Isu with the Maker, and it has been seen that the Maker was antecedent to Isu in humiliation. And if thou sayest that Isu was actually crucified, thou sayest that it seemed so (?), and not the truth. And if thou addest that He also went down to Sheol and ascended, thou sayest (it) without believing (it). For thou dost not confess the [coming to life of] the body. But inasmuch as (?) it is true that He was actually manifested, the Maker anticipated Him in manifestation. How therefore canst thou liken Isu to that Stranger, who is strange to Him in every respect ? And (why) dost thou wish, on the other hand, to account Him strange to the Maker when He resembles Him in every respect ?

... But concerning Moses and Elijah who were found on the mountain in company with Isu, what do they (i.e. the Marcionites) say that they were doing in his presence ? But they say that they were guardians there. And what. pray, were they guarding, since there was nothing on the mountain ? And if there had been anything on it, the Maker would have had the Cherub and the point of the sword with which to surround the mountain.27 And if because Isu was a stranger to Him (i.e. to the Maker) they were guarding the mountain for Him, then, as between the mountain and the sanctuary, which of them was greater 28 to the Maker, that He should cease to guard His city and |lx His sanctuary and send them (i.e. Moses and Elijah) to guard a mountain in which there was nothing ? If He did not set forth [P.88.] some symbol there for us, let them tell us what such persons as Moses and Elijah were doing there. And if they say, 'You are asking us concerning your own (affairs) also,' then leave that (question) of ours as to what they were doing, and tell us (?) your own (opinion), namely on what account Isu went up thither. Was it in order to fight that he went up thither ? . . . did he make war against the Maker or . . . ? . . .
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