Freethought & Rationalism Archive

rhutchin · 01-02-2008, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by makerowner

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

The Bible stands on its own. I can quote Paul or Peter who wrote that God inspired them and others to write Scripture. They wrote that which God inspired them to write, so a person is to be convinced by the Bible alone and not by any clever arguments of men. My desire is that you understand clearly that which the Bible says so that you can decide what you want to do with it. I cannot tell you what you should believe but I can tell you what I think you ought to believe. The final decision is yours.

The Qur'aan says that it was written directly by God, so I guess it's more valuable than Peter or Paul, who were just inspired by God. Right?

I did not know that. Do you have the exact language from the Koran stating this?

GenesisNemesis · 01-02-2008, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

I did not know that. Do you have the exact language from the Koran stating this?

So, are you saying, that because the Bible says it's inspired, then it's 100% literally true, and if the Koran doesn't have it, then the Bible is right by default? That's not much of a defense. In fact, it's the stereotype we drive 'round this forum all the time.

rhutchin · 01-02-2008, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GenesisNemesis

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

I did not know that. Do you have the exact language from the Koran stating this?

So, are you saying, that because the Bible says it's inspired, then it's 100% literally true, and if the Koran doesn't have it, then the Bible is right by default? That's not much of a defense. In fact, it's the stereotype we drive 'round this forum all the time.

No, I am basically saying that I did not know that the Qur'aan says that it was written directly by God and I am interested in the exact language in the Koran telling us this.

If both the Bible and the Qur'aan state that they were inspired, then at least one of them is lying to us. I don't think we can conclude much more than this.

GenesisNemesis · 01-02-2008, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

If both the Bible and the Qur'aan state that they were inspired, then at least one of them is lying to us. I don't think we can conclude much more than this.

Why does it have to be a lie? Why can't they just be mistaken?

rhutchin · 01-02-2008, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GenesisNemesis

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

If both the Bible and the Qur'aan state that they were inspired, then at least one of them is lying to us. I don't think we can conclude much more than this.

Why does it have to be a lie? Why can't they just be mistaken?

It would seem that Christ is God or Allah is God (which the Qur'aan allegedly states is not Christ), but they cannot both be God. At least one must, it seems to me, be lying.

GenesisNemesis · 01-02-2008, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

It would seem that Christ is God or Allah is God (which the Qur'aan allegedly states is not Christ), but they cannot both be God. At least one must, it seems to me, be lying.

Yes, but there is a fine line between who is mistaken and who is lying. For one, lying is intentional. If someone is mistaken, it is the unintentional advocation of falsehood (they did not know what they were saying was false), and thus not lying.

Gullwind · 01-02-2008, 06:49 PM

Of course, they could both be wrong. It's not either/or.

makerowner · 01-02-2008, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Quote:

Originally Posted by makerowner

The Qur'aan says that it was written directly by God, so I guess it's more valuable than Peter or Paul, who were just inspired by God. Right?

I did not know that. Do you have the exact language from the Koran stating this?

Here's a few. There are probably hundreds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Surah 2:23

And if ye are in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto Our slave (Muhammad), then produce a surah of the like thereof, and call your witness beside Allah if ye are truthful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Surah 2.97

Say (O Muhammad to mankind): Who is an enemy to Gabriel! For he it is who hath revealed (this Scripture) to thy heart by Allah's leave, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, and a guidance and glad tidings to believers.

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Originally Posted by Surah 16:88

Say: Verily, though mankind and the Jinn should assemble to produce the like of this Qur'aan, they could not produce the like thereof though they were helpers of one another.

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Originally Posted by Surah 16:106

And (it is) a Qur'aan that We have divided, that thou mayest recite it unto mankind at intervals, and We have revealed it by (successive) revelation.

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Originally Posted by Surah 2:185

The month of Ramadan, in which was revealed the Qur'aan[...]

So I guess you'll be converting to Islam now, right? After all, the book said it was inspired by God, so it must be true.
Also, where exactly in the Bible do you find a listing of canonical books and an explanation that they are all the word of God? And don't use that one about 'all scripture is from God', because there was no defined canon at the time.

punk77 · 01-02-2008, 10:47 PM

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Originally Posted by rhutchin

<snip>

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Fine. What do you think an "eternal sin" is compared to your ordinary, everyday sin? What do you think it means to be guilty of an "eternal sin" or to "lie under the guilt of eternal sin"?

Jesus thinks that an eternal sin is blaspheming the Holy Ghost:

KJV
Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.
Matt 12:34 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

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Originally Posted by rhutchin

Did Jesus mean this to be the exception to the "all" rule He had just explained? or Did Jesus mean to emphasize the grave danger a person fell into by blaspheming?

I would say both. If all sins could be forgiven then there would be no need for him to single out that one in a verse immediately following after he had just said that all sins could be forgiven. Jesus is showing the difference between sinning/blaspheming against '...the sons of men...' (Mark 3:28)/ '...against the Son of man...' Matt 12:34 and sinning/blaspheming against the Holy Ghost.

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Originally Posted by rhutchin

Does Jesus mean to say that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is the exception to the "all" rule...

Yes.

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Originally Posted by rhutchin

...or does He mean to say that the blasphemous person can never be forgiven so long as they blaspheme?

No - he is saying that they can never be forgiven: '...whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.'

Dogfish · 01-03-2008, 04:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dogfish

So, you assert that the bible stories are eyewitness accounts. I find that hard to believe. Substantiation?

A few examples (I hit the submit button before I was ready, but you can basically read the introductions to most books to establish the source of the account).

Luke 1
1 Inasmuch as many have taken in hand to set in order a narrative of those things which have been fulfilled among us,
2 just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word delivered them to us,
3 it seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write to you an orderly account, most excellent Theophilus,
4 that you may know the certainty of those things in which you were instructed.

Romans 1
1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God...
7 To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians
1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2 To the church of God which is at Corinth,...

Philemon
1 Paul, a prisoner of Christ Jesus, and Timothy our brother, To Philemon our beloved friend and fellow laborer,
2 to the beloved Apphia, Archippus our fellow soldier, and to the church in your house:...

Revelation
9 I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet,...

So, it's an eyewitness account because is SAYS it's an eyewitness account. You'll have to do better than that.

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01-02-2008, 06:49 PM	#97
Gullwind Veteran Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,037	Of course, they could both be wrong. It's not either/or.

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