figuer

What is the position of standard Biblical criticism regarding Adam-Eve's free will before the Fall?

• If they possessed "free will" before the fall, then the standard Christian explanation for the problem of Evil (it was necessary for there to be "free will") is invalidated, because Adam-Eve possessed it before having performed an evil action (disobeying).

• If they didn't posses "free will" then they are blameless, as they did not perform the action of disobedience, but were programmed to do so.

Cheerful Charlie

Tain't any standard dogma. You have various isms, sublapsarians, infralapsarians et al. Google for more dismal nonsense about these things.
Also check out Pelagians who denied original sin all together.

Some say God had predetermined all including the fall, some say man had free will up till Adam ate the apple. None of these dopes knows dirt all about any of this.

CC

figuer

I did before starting the thread - it was very entertaining nonsense.

OneInFundieville

Googling on free will and heaven...

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=free+will+heaven

And free will and angels...

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=free+will+angels

will produce the same mumbo jumbo.

temeraire

How long is a piece of string? There will be many answers, and totally moot.

According to Genesis, God laid instructions on Adam to be fruitful etc. The implication is that Adam would have understood, otherwise God's instructions would have been meaningless. He would therefore know right from wrong. Why he had to be tested with the knowledge of the tree of good and bad would seem to be perverse, and would an all-knowing God know the result anyway?

The other argument is that the original pair couldn't have known good from bad otherwise God wouldn't have said that eating would have opened their eyes, and they would have known good and bad. Perverse in the extreme.

I've never heard any Christian rationalise that one away. More Biblical indiosyncracies.

Ray Moscow

I think it's more of a theological question than a biblical criticism one.

My view is that the Eden story is just a myth, but it sures looks like God set up Eve and Adam to take the fall.

figuer

I found this interesting paper where the myth of the Fall of Men is studied from the stand point of Biblical criticism:

http://etext.virginia.edu/journals/a...01-02-e03.html

The author seems to conclude there was no free will before the fall, but since free will is necesary for Salvation, men had to fall. In other words, god makes men fall into perdition, so that he may save them from perdition. :huh:

Cheerful Charlie

Infralapsarianism vs sublapsarianism, always good for a fight on the xian forums.

CC

Gundulf

You have this theist's agreement on this point - quite correct, if they had free will in any meaningful sense, then the possibility of evil being "required" for them to have free will is meaningless.

Some Christians will pull out the "poor, lonely God" card - that God was too insecure to trust that these people really loved him unless they in fact could choose otherwise. (I guess God got his answer?)

I point out the similar problem of angels being understood to have free will, but being sinless; and in heaven, Christians believe humans to have free will, but be in fact unable to sin.

John Kesler

But angels can sin. See 2 Peter 2:4 (and Jude 6).

And since in heaven, humans can be sinless and have free will, the obvious question is why didn't God initially make humans the way that they will end up in heaven.