Sheshbazzar

Cheerful Charlie is doing pretty good in spite of your heckling interjections. Please don't feed the trolls Cheerful Charlie

sotto voce

Shesh has such faith in you, Cheerful.

Cheerful Charlie

Have you ever heard of the Leiden papyruses? Actually read any of them? There was a lot going on religiously in Egypt that very few people in these sort of arguments know about. And it most certainly had nothing to do with what went on in Israel at this time, (which did not exist). The Israelite religious revolution happened some 6 centuries later. Ever read the El mythology? (1400 BCE) And then compared books like Job to that? And all of that to the Leiden papyuses?
Waggling your ears and rolling your eyes and shouting "drivel!" is no substitute for going back to the original sources and understanding the history of the near East from 1400 BCE to 500 BCE. Sorry.

The Leiden papyruses should be better known. It would make those who talk "knowingly" about Ankhaten and Moses look a little cock sure and maybe not so knowledgable. Reading the El mythology carefully gives us clues. What was going on in Egypt and Israel were two very different things with different roots and different methodologies that had nothing to do with each other.

And is far more interesting than the old tiresome Moses/Ankhaten nonsense. All of that is about as true and scholarly as Kersey Grave's 16 Crucified Saviors Book.
So 19th century amateurish scholarship.

The Egyptians were intensely interested in an afterlife and obtaining that after ife. The Torah knows nothing of an afterlife at all. How can that have been inspired by Egyptian religion? Job, the sons of God are alive and well. Not exactly monotheism in all its glory. And this is the edited version of Israelite religion circa 700 BCE.. What do you suppose got edited out in the final compilation handed to King Josiah?


Cheerful Charlie

sotto voce

So Egyptian religion did not form the roots of Judaism.

So it is said. But Realpolitik is naively, or cunningly, taken out of the equation. The plutocracy was not interested in an afterlife, one tiny bit. These people were interested in bullshitting the others into providing them their creature comforts, and never mind what happens when you're dead. Religion was a tool of an economic system, one that helped to keep an empire going. Nothing more. Same with all the major ancient civilisations, so called.

Then why was it written?

'The sons of God' refers to created beings, people and/or angels. People are referred to as 'gods' because, made in God's image, they take momentous moral decisions. There's no indication of more than one actual deity in Job, or anywhere else in the Bible.

outhouse

No it is not accepted, in any way shape or form. Ignorant to tell you the truth, he has no credibility, only a lack of it.



Israelites factually came from displaced Canaanites, as the foundation for this developping culture

developping being the key word.




During this time period after 1200 BC most of your major civilizations had collapsed, displaced semetic speaking people migrated to the highlands and started settlements. This was a slow migration.

You had a few different influeneces, and I agree with Cheerful Charlie that El and Asherah, Baal were all worshipped under the Canaanite pantheon. But lets not forget Yahweh, who has more Midian roots.

Sometime before 800BC beofre monotheism, and some Israelites took Els attributes and applied them to Yaweh, so then we see Yahweh had Asherah as a wife. This was a dynamic culture, with widespead belief, some held on to El and some Yahweh.

After 622 BC around the time period of second Isaiah, A stricty Yahwist took over and monotheism was born, but not fully seated.


There is no Egyptian connection

outhouse

Israelites were factually polytheistic

your wrong about the sons of god, Canaanites and Israelites both had a family of gods. Isarelites were few though compared to canaanites



No Egypt had nothing to do with Israelite religion other then its influence on Canaan



your semi correct that Early Israelites did not view death as the end. But there afterlife was nothing like christians. But if one researches you will find 7 heavens in the OT. But it was never the foundation of their religion like christianity. It wasnt written around a afterlife.

Jaybees

That's for sure. I can just picture the compilers of the OT rolfing all over the place as they cobbled together their history of the Hebrew people and fashioned those intriguing customs for them.

Jaybees

Oh well. As long as everyone is speculating, I might as well pitch in and feed my ego.

From what I can make out, the Israelites were just one of a dozen or so ragged, nomadic tribes wandering back and forth across Palestine. They had their own gods, as did the other goat herders. For whatever reason, they managed to be a bit more successful in massacring their neighbors than most of the other local mobs. This convinced them that those other gods were pretty worthless, which of course made them rely more and more on their own gods, especially their head guy, eventually labelled Jehovah. Since Egyptians traders and armies roamed through the area occasionally, there was bound to be some influence from that source. Continuing success on the field of battle with loud trumpets, sling shots, and ass's jaws, along with Jehovah carrying their banner, eventually moved him not only into first place, but to the only place.

steve_bnk

That was the inference on a pbs show on the most recent archeological evidence.

The earliest tribes may have formed out of Egytian escapees, at least in part. And further, tghe eraliest frms included a male and female deity.

outhouse

they did not have their own gods.

nor their own beliefs


after evolving from Canaanites, much of the biblical influence and legends are Mesopotamian in origin developped after the fall of the temple during teh Babylonian exile.



Proto Israelites however were defeated by egyptians in 1209 BC which at that time they were still semi-nomadic. and of course we know nothing of these peopel calles Israel, other then they were a band of canaanites at that time.

It would also be the last time they were even "tribal" so to speak. the migration of people after 1200 BC all the way to 1000 BC was staggeringly fast, and thet developped rather quickly into a decent sized civilization.

Enough so that a charactor like David could be noted as a hit-n-run bandit harrassing other civilizations.


Very little speculating in my post