IBelieveInHymn

Hello everyone, Sorry I can't reply to everyone at the moment, but I will add my input on this topic.

In Hebrew there is a play on words between sinah and the word for "hate" which is sane'. The footnote in the Soncino edition explains the saying that God hates the angels and loves mankind: "By giving them His Torah, though the angels desired it.--'Hates' is not meant literally, but simply implies that He showed greater love for man."


"Honor your father and mother," and "Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death." - Are you suggesting that Jesus dismissed the one of the 10 commandments?


But these antonyms, ahavah ("love") and sin'ah ("hate"), are also used with a special flavor in Deuteronomy 21:15-17 as meaning the loved one and the hated, that is, the less-loved one. In Greek, the same Semitisms are carried over in the antonymic use of agapan/misein with the same special flavor in Matthew 6:24 and Luke 16:13 "where, in dependence on Dt. 21:15-17 and Ex. r., 51(104) [footnote--on Ex. 38:21 'Why is the mount of the Law called Sinai? Because God disregarded (sane') the lofty and loved (ahav) the lowly' they mean 'to prefer' ('to be faithful to') and 'to slight' ('to despise'). We have here a Hebraism, as in the requirement for discipleship." This last reference is to the two parallel lists of requirements for discipleship;

Matthew 10:37 uses the formula "ho philon huper eme", "He who loves more than me,"

Luke 14:26 simply parallels it by saying "kai ou misei", "If any one comes to me and does not hate.."

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/answers/.../#anchor620723

I receive some of my information from Jewish scholars and Bible scholars. If you feel they are wrong in interpretating the bible, then you should take it up with them.

In the link I have posted, you will see the words Jesus used in these verses.

Luke 14:26 does not mean to actually "hate" your parents.

"If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."

"Which ones?" the man inquired." Jesus replied, "Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother, and love your neighbor as yourself."

By Jesus saying this. I would have to conclude he did not mean "hate your parents" in Luke.

Keith&Co.

Interesting question, considering that most of your posts in this thread are to argue that there is a depth of meaning behind the English translation of a verse, and a literal reading of the litany is wrong.

Many skeptics point out an apparent contradiction in that god commands that we not kill, as a commandment, but also takes human lives by his own hand and directs his followers to take human lives. And he directs that violating the commandments should be penalized by death.
"Don't kill, but if you do kill, you should be killed.'

We're told that 'thou shalt not kill' doesn't really mean that you never, ever take a life. But the actual concept discussed is 'murder,' killing without the legal authority to take a life. So a soldier killing in war is not violating the Commandment, since it's not actually 'murder.' Neither is stoning a man to death for violating a commandment.
"Don't murder, but if you do murder, you should be legally executed.'

So, no, suggesting that Jesus commands people to be killed for disrespect to their parents is not suggesting that Jesus is ignoring the commandment. Rather, according to a butt-ton of apologists, he's actually supporting the commandment, and literally sanctioning death penalties.

mrunicycler

Noted.

Jesus did work on the sabbath (he healed a man's hand on or about mark 3:2), thus breaking the commandment.

semiopen

Using a Jews for Jesus link in conjunction with the phrase "Jewish scholars and Biblical scholars" needs further explanation.

I don't follow your love/hate explanation, which seems to be directly copied from the link. In conjunction with Deuteronomy, love has a meaning closer to loyalty. Your explanation doesn't even touch on this.

Your OP also confused me. There are different types of atheists just like there are different types of religious people. Based on what you are saying, a vast majority of religious people don't understand the bible either.

Finally, the Hebrew that you use doesn't really make things clearer, it seems to only be a veneer to give whatever point you are trying to make a profundity that isn't there. What is the point of telling us that ahavah means love in Hebrew? Perhaps this is included because you copied from the "Jewish scholars and biblical scholars."

bacht

Yes, because the end of all things was near, according to John the Baptist and everyone else in the NT. If we take them at their word, no-one expected the world to survive even into the 2nd C.

Why do you refer to Hebrew when analysing quotations from Jesus? The language of the day was Aramaic, similar but not the same.

IBelieveInHymn

I would have to say this is wrong. Since we know Jesus said, "No one knows of that Hour or Day, Not the Angels, Nor the Son, but only the Father".

Because Jesus also spoke in Hebrew. And in this verse he used Hebrew, and he used a completely different word than what the Greek and English copyists have written. The root of the verse actually means, "To love God more than anyone, including your own parents". Greek and English translators screwed up. Because they didn't fully understand the Hebrew word "Sin'ah".

"To love lesser than" or "more than" does not mean to literally "hate" someone.

I've had atheists ask me, "why couldn't Jesus speak in a language we can understand instead of speaking in codes?"

But he did speak in a language that was understood. (in that time era).

spamandham

The oldest versions of the gospels we have are penned in Greek. Even if there was a historical jesus, and even if he spoke in Hebrew or Aramaic (neither of which can be adequately shown), it is nothing but a game of assumptions to claim that what we find in the Greek was originally some other specific word/phrase spoken by Jesus in Hebrew with some nuance of meaning behind it.

Arguments don't get much more worthless than that.

spamandham

Upon what do you base the portion of this claim I've highlighted in bold? Mere assumption?

IBelieveInHymn

They link the scholars' names and books.

The explanation is quite simple. There are several meanings for the word "hate". God said, "he hates the angels, but loves mankind". Now, we know from common sense that God does not hate anyone. Especially his angels. You have to investigate the meanings of the words in the bible before you can conclude the bible is a lie, or it holds many errors.

Yes, I can agree with you on that. There are alot of religious people out there that probably never even opened a bible. They believe in God because they just have that gut feeling.

The point I'm trying to make is quite simple. Jesus didn't use the word "hatred" in Luke. He used the terms, "to love lesser than, or greater than". There is a huge difference.

bacht

Mmm, if you read Ezra and Nehemiah you'll see that Hebrew was already dying out as a spoken language by the mid-5th C bce (they needed interpreters to "give the sense" to the laymen). Many Jews were using the Greek Septuagint in the 1st C, as did the first Christians. After the bar-Kochba revolt it's doubtful any Jews were speaking Hebrew except in synagogues.