Freethought & Rationalism Archive

philbar · 07-22-2006, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

It is possible that Adam and Eve are in heaven, if there is one. Read Genesis. According to Genesis, God was pleased with the offering of Abel, so it is likely that Adam and Eve could have made similar offerings. There was no spiritual death. Adam and Eve just had to offer up some sheep and some sheep fat, and God would respect them.

Genesis4:4, 'And Abel, he also brought of the firstlihgs of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and unto his offering'.

That's it!! Sheep meat and sheep fat and you and God are buddies. The snake was right!! Adam lived until he was 930 years and became like God, knowing good and evil, so Adam is no idiot, I think he is where Gods reside, in spiritual bliss.

Imagine this. I just killed 20 guys out on the street. I go to court. Now in court I give the judge my Ferrari and the jury $10,000 each. Do you think they would be pleased with my gifts? Do you think they would let me off the hook of the crime I committed. You can't run to the judge and say, but look how good I was...look at all the people I didn't kill. You still committed the crime and the punishment needs to be fulfilled.

Jayrok · 07-22-2006, 11:01 AM

Exodus 32:33 -- The LORD replied to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book.

If this statement is true, then God's book of life is empty by default... if you believe Paul's message of Original Sin. According to Paul ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God. But since Moses was not blotted out of the book, nor David or the host of others, maybe original sin doesn't wash. So maybe God lied since no one that sinned was really blotted out, or maybe it was just Paul that lied.

philbar · 07-22-2006, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jayrok

Exodus 32:33 -- The LORD replied to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book.

If this statement is true, then God's book of life is empty by default... if you believe Paul's message of Original Sin. According to Paul ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God. But since Moses was not blotted out of the book, nor David or the host of others, maybe original sin doesn't wash. So maybe God lied since no one that sinned was really blotted out, or maybe it was just Paul that lied.

But Jesus makes us white as snow...so it is as if we never sinned.

Jayrok · 07-22-2006, 11:07 AM

John 18:20 -- "I have spoken openly to the world," Jesus replied. "I always taught in synagogues or at the temple, where all the Jews come together. I said nothing in secret.

This is not true. Jesus often taught his disciples in secret. And he didn't ALWAYS teach at the temple. He taught on hills, sermon on the mount, he pushed off shore in a boat and taught a gathering of people.

Jayrok · 07-22-2006, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by philbar

But Jesus makes us white as snow...so it is as if we never sinned.

yet you still sin. But that is beside the point. God said whoever sinned against him was blotted out. Moses was not. Aaron was not, etc.. Were those Israelites not sinful creatures when God made this decree?

Apparently none of them had sinned yet as of that moment. Isn't that strange?

aa5874 · 07-22-2006, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by philbar

Imagine this. I just killed 20 guys out on the street. I go to court. Now in court I give the judge my Ferrari and the jury $10,000 each. Do you think they would be pleased with my gifts? Do you think they would let me off the hook of the crime I committed. You can't run to the judge and say, but look how good I was...look at all the people I didn't kill. You still committed the crime and the punishment needs to be fulfilled.

Sheep meat and sheep fat was all Adam's son needed for God to have respect for him. God, at that time, loved sheep meat and sheep fat, what's wrong with that. If I disobey God and sheep meat and fat gets me to heaven, what's wrong with that , at least I am not spiritually dead.

philbar · 07-22-2006, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jayrok

John 18:20 -- "I have spoken openly to the world," Jesus replied. "I always taught in synagogues or at the temple, where all the Jews come together. I said nothing in secret.

This is not true. Jesus often taught his disciples in secret. And he didn't ALWAYS teach at the temple. He taught on hills, sermon on the mount, he pushed off shore in a boat and taught a gathering of people.

Again, you are over analyzing scripture like it's going to be word for word error free. The book is written by man...not Got. It did not fall from the sky. You must read it in order to see what the author is trying to portray. In this case the author is portraying that Jesus didn't deceive anyone with his teachings. What he taught to his disciples he taught to the world. There was not trickery to undermine the high priest.

philbar · 07-22-2006, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Sheep meat and sheep fat was all Adam's son needed for God to have respect for him. God, at that time, loved sheep meat and sheep fat, what's wrong with that. If I disobey God and sheep meat and fat gets me to heaven, what's wrong with that , at least I am not spiritually dead.

Sheep sacrifices didn't free anyone from spiritual death. Only through the blood of Jesus are we saved.

philbar · 07-22-2006, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jayrok

yet you still sin. But that is beside the point. God said whoever sinned against him was blotted out. Moses was not. Aaron was not, etc.. Were those Israelites not sinful creatures when God made this decree?

Apparently none of them had sinned yet as of that moment. Isn't that strange?

What you quoted in Exodus is part of the law. Now lets read Romans 3:

21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

There is no contradiction

Javaman · 07-22-2006, 01:44 PM

Why do you believe Paul told the truth about his visions of Jesus? Since you admit the bible is not error-free, how do you decide to believe what Paul wrote?

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07-22-2006, 11:01 AM	#12
Jayrok Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: USA Posts: 471	Exodus 32:33 -- The LORD replied to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book. If this statement is true, then God's book of life is empty by default... if you believe Paul's message of Original Sin. According to Paul ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God. But since Moses was not blotted out of the book, nor David or the host of others, maybe original sin doesn't wash. So maybe God lied since no one that sinned was really blotted out, or maybe it was just Paul that lied.

07-22-2006, 11:07 AM	#14
Jayrok Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: USA Posts: 471	John 18:20 -- "I have spoken openly to the world," Jesus replied. "I always taught in synagogues or at the temple, where all the Jews come together. I said nothing in secret. This is not true. Jesus often taught his disciples in secret. And he didn't ALWAYS teach at the temple. He taught on hills, sermon on the mount, he pushed off shore in a boat and taught a gathering of people.

07-22-2006, 01:44 PM	#20
Javaman Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Nebraska Posts: 1,708	Why do you believe Paul told the truth about his visions of Jesus? Since you admit the bible is not error-free, how do you decide to believe what Paul wrote?

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