Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Malachi151 · 10-13-2006, 09:18 AM

Moderators, can you please merge the Psalm 22 thread and the Saints Rise thread with this one?

I've thrown together a quick matchup of other texts to the crucifixion story as written in Matthew (which is almost identical to Mark, but with a little mroe detail).

Here is the link to them side by side with color coding:

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/temp/matthew_15.htm

Here it is broken out here:

Quote:

Matthew 15:

15Now it was the governor's custom at the Feast to release a prisoner chosen by the crowd. 16At that time they had a notorious prisoner, called Barabbas. 17So when the crowd had gathered, Pilate asked them, "Which one do you want me to release to you: Barabbas, or Jesus who is called Christ?" 18For he knew it was out of envy that they had handed Jesus over to him.

19While Pilate was sitting on the judge's seat, his wife sent him this message: "Don't have anything to do with that innocent man, for I have suffered a great deal today in a dream because of him."

20But the chief priests and the elders persuaded the crowd to ask for Barabbas and to have Jesus executed.

21"Which of the two do you want me to release to you?" asked the governor.
"Barabbas," they answered.

22"What shall I do, then, with Jesus who is called Christ?" Pilate asked.
They all answered, "Crucify him!"

23"Why? What crime has he committed?" asked Pilate.
But they shouted all the louder, "Crucify him!"

24When Pilate saw that he was getting nowhere, but that instead an uproar was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd. "I am innocent of this man's blood," he said. "It is your responsibility!"

25All the people answered, "Let his blood be on us and on our children!"

26Then he released Barabbas to them. But he had Jesus flogged, and handed him over to be crucified.

27Then the governor's soldiers took Jesus into the Praetorium and gathered the whole company of soldiers around him. 28They stripped him and put a scarlet robe on him, 29and then twisted together a crown of thorns and set it on his head. They put a staff in his right hand and knelt in front of him and mocked him. "Hail, king of the Jews!" they said. 30They spit on him, and took the staff and struck him on the head again and again. 31After they had mocked him, they took off the robe and put his own clothes on him. Then they led him away to crucify him.

32As they were going out, they met a man from Cyrene, named Simon, and they forced him to carry the cross. 33They came to a place called Golgotha (which means The Place of the Skull). 34There they offered Jesus wine to drink, mixed with gall; but after tasting it, he refused to drink it. 35When they had crucified him, they divided up his clothes by casting lots. 36And sitting down, they kept watch over him there. 37Above his head they placed the written charge against him: THIS IS JESUS, THE KING OF THE JEWS. 38Two robbers were crucified with him, one on his right and one on his left. 39Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads 40and saying, "You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, save yourself! Come down from the cross, if you are the Son of God!"

41In the same way the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders mocked him. 42"He saved others," they said, "but he can't save himself! He's the King of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. 43He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, 'I am the Son of God.' " 44In the same way the robbers who were crucified with him also heaped insults on him.

45From the sixth hour until the ninth hour darkness came over all the land. 46About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

47When some of those standing there heard this, they said, "He's calling Elijah."

48Immediately one of them ran and got a sponge. He filled it with wine vinegar, put it on a stick, and offered it to Jesus to drink. 49The rest said, "Now leave him alone. Let's see if Elijah comes to save him."

50And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

51At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. 52The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

54When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified, and exclaimed, "Surely he was the Son of God!"

Quote:

( Flaccus IV ; Philo

(36) There was a certain madman named Carabbas ... this man spent all his days and nights naked in the roads, minding neither cold nor heat, the sport of idle children and wanton youths;

(37) and they, driving the poor wretch as far as the public gymnasium, and setting him up there on high that he might be seen by everybody, flattened out a leaf of papyrus and put it on his head instead of a diadem, and clothed the rest of his body with a common door mat instead of a cloak and instead of a scepter they put in his hand a small stick of the native papyrus which they found lying by the way side and gave to him;

(38) and when, like actors in theatrical spectacles, he had received all the insignia of royal authority, and had been dressed and adorned like a king, the young men bearing sticks on their shoulders stood on each side of him instead of spear-bearers, in imitation of the bodyguards of the king, and then others came up, some as if to salute him, and others making as though they wished to plead their causes before him, and others pretending to wish to consult with him about the affairs of the state.

(39) Then from the multitude of those who were standing around there arose a wonderful shout of men calling out Maris!; and this is the name by which it is said that they call the kings among the Syrians; for they knew that Agrippa [King Herod of the Jews] was by birth a Syrian, and also that he was possessed of a great district of Syria of which he was the sovereign

(Psalm 22:

"1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from the words of my groaning?

...

7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads:

8 "He trusts in the LORD;
let the LORD rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him."

...

16 Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced my hands and my feet.

17 I can count all my bones;
people stare and gloat over me.

18 They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing.

...[The following, while not a part of the crucifixion story, reflects the message attributed to Jesus]

26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;
they who seek the LORD will praise him—
may your hearts live forever!

27 All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the LORD,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,

28 for dominion belongs to the LORD
and he rules over the nations.

29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
those who cannot keep themselves alive.

30 Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.

31 They will proclaim his righteousness
to a people yet unborn—for he has done it.)

(Ezekiel 37:

11 Then he said to me: "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They say, 'Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.' 12 Therefore prophesy and say to them: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: O my people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. 13 Then you, my people, will know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. 14 I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the LORD have spoken, and I have done it, declares the LORD.' ")

Toto · 10-13-2006, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

If you haven't seen it, then "its new to you"

I'm just late to the discussion apparently

I don't mean to be dismissive or to suggest that you need an advanced degree before you comment.

But there is a thread that is a hot topic on the first page here on one verse of Psalm 22 - Like a Lion etc..

Basically, Christians claim that Psalm 22 is prophesy that was fulfilled in Jesus' crucifixion. Jewish anti-missionaries claim that the Christians have completely missed the point of the Psalm and are mistranslating it and don't know what they are talking about. Biblical skeptics claim that Psalm 22 was a literary source for the crucifixion scene in the imaginative fictional tale of Jesus.

Malachi151 · 10-13-2006, 09:30 AM

Ahh, I never read the Like a Lion thread, because the title didn't grab my attention

Toto · 10-13-2006, 09:30 AM

I've merged two of the threads you requested, but the Saints Rising seems to be enough of a separate topic.

dzim77 · 10-13-2006, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

Oh granted. There is a lot in the Psalm that isn't in the story, but clearly the Pslam was used as base material, plus we have no way of knowing what other form this Psalm may have taken, popular forms of it, oral forms, etc.

I think to argue that the Resurrection story in Mark and Matthew is not based on this Psalm, just because the Pslam has some extra lines that are not in the Resurrection story or because the theme of the Psalm is not exactly the same is foolishness.

Hi Malachi, (good name)

Sorry, but doesn't it seem a bit hasty to postulate that the gospel accounts were "based on" Psalm 22 after just having read it for the first time?

Have you read these accounts as well? (below)... they paint a picture of a suffering Messiah figure. Whether you believe Jesus was the fulfillment of this Messiah figure, or whether his followers falsified accounts to accomodate these prophesies is another issue. But to say Psalm 22 is the only account that reflects (prophecies?) the gospels would probably be short-sided.

Thanks.

Quote:

Isaiah 53
1 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.

3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.

5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.

8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken.

9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

11 After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

Quote:

"And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son....
On that day a fountain will be opened to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity.
-Zechariah 12:10-13:1

Malachi151 · 10-13-2006, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Sorry, but doesn't it seem a bit hasty to postulate that the gospel accounts were "based on" Psalm 22 after just having read it for the first time?

Have you read these accounts as well? (below)... they paint a picture of a suffering Messiah figure. Whether you believe Jesus was the fulfillment of this Messiah figure, or whether his followers falsified accounts to accomodate these prophesies is another issue. But to say Psalm 22 is the only account that reflects (prophecies?) the gospels would probably be short-sided.

You mis-read me, or I misspoke.

I mean that its clearly A source, not THE source. See my linked page on this that I just threw together:

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/temp/matthew_15.htm

I can always add more

Solo · 10-14-2006, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redhen

You left some stuff out that doesn't fit so neatly into a messianic story.
Here's a Jewish "counter-missionary" site I found that explains their side:
http://home.att.net/~fiddlerzvi/Psalm22.html

snippet: "The middle of the psalm is equally untenable for Christians. The psalmist does not say something like, "I'll bring peace and salvation," as one would expect from a self sacrificing god. Rather he says, "Save me and I'll tell everyone how great You are." (Vs 21-22 (KJV).)"

There can be little doubt that Mark used Psalm 22 in drafting the original Paschal mystery. His original script did not need any resurrectional "appearances" because it was taken for granted that Jesus, post-mortem, was seated on the right hand of God. The mystical experience of the apostles who were Jesus epigones was itself the guarantee of that. It was Paul who suggested the Passion of the Cross as the metaphor for the violent desire for self-annihilation through which the manic excitement (Spirit/Jesus) was known to exit (1 Cor 2:1-5, Rom 6:3-5). Mark simply used the Psalm in transforming the theophany into a "mystery" narrative.

At the next stage, a new version of the Passion was needed because of the emergence, and preponderance, of the "laic" church. The Jesus believers in the post-apostolic church had no "animators" of the mysteries. They had no idea that the sayings in the texts were riddles, koans, suggestions, allegorical rendering of mental events relating to altered brain chemistry. They ate it with the host as "history". For them, Jesus' resurrection (Psalm 23) had to be written up as dead man walking and talking.

Jiri

JoeWallack · 10-14-2006, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solo

There can be little doubt that Mark used Psalm 22 in drafting the original Paschal mystery. His original script did not need any resurrectional "appearances" because it was taken for granted that Jesus, post-mortem, was seated on the right hand of God. The mystical experience of the apostles who were Jesus epigones was itself the guarantee of that. It was Paul who suggested the Passion of the Cross as the metaphor for the violent desire for self-annihilation through which the manic excitement (Spirit/Jesus) was known to exit (1 Cor 2:1-5, Rom 6:3-5). Mark simply used the Psalm in transforming the theophany into a "mystery" narrative.

At the next stage, a new version of the Passion was needed because of the emergence, and preponderance, of the "laic" church. The Jesus believers in the post-apostolic church had no "animators" of the mysteries. They had no idea that the sayings in the texts were riddles, koans, suggestions, allegorical rendering of mental events relating to altered brain chemistry. They ate it with the host as "history". For them, Jesus' resurrection (Psalm 23) had to be written up as dead man walking and talking.
Jiri

JW:
Or alternatively, "Mark" presents an Ending where Peter and James do not Witness a resurrected Jesus because he wanted to communicate that Peter and James did not witness a resurrected Jesus.

Joseph

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

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10-13-2006, 09:30 AM	#13
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	Ahh, I never read the Like a Lion thread, because the title didn't grab my attention

10-13-2006, 09:30 AM	#14
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	I've merged two of the threads you requested, but the Saints Rising seems to be enough of a separate topic.

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