Freethought & Rationalism Archive

TedM · 01-16-2013, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tanya

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

So aa, I take it you disagree with Price (quoted again below). In what way do you disagree? Why would contemporary Roman or Jewish non-believers be expected to write about Jesus?

Hi Ted, for what little it is worth, I don't accept Price's endorsement of the claim that Josephus wrote about Jesus.

Hi tanya, I"m not interested in his endorsement of the Josephus claim anyway, so it isn't worth anything to me. I'm interested in why people might disagree with Price with regard to the quote in the OP.

aa5874 · 01-16-2013, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

So aa, I take it you disagree with Price (quoted again below). In what way do you disagree? Why would contemporary Roman or Jewish non-believers be expected to write about Jesus?

Quote:

I do not think that its some shocking thing to find little to nothing in extrabiblical sources because if the gospels are true in every respect historically what would your pagan newspaper editor, so to speak, have known? He would have said "oh there's another faith healer and exorcist? well they're a dime a dozen" You wouldn't expect to find much about Jesus, so that has never struck me as a powerful argument.

If the NT is true then Jesus of Nazareth was considered to be the Son of God who was sacrificied for the Remission of Sins and made the Laws of the Jews obsolete.

Galatians 2:16 KJV

Quote:

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified .

If the NT is true then Paul was preaching all over the Roman Empire that NO MAN is justified by works but by Faith in Jesus.

If the NT is true, Jesus of the NT, the Sacrificied Son of God was the most significant Jewish character in the 1st century--A UNIVERSAL Savior of Jews and Gentiles.

However Josephus did NOT remember Jesus of Nazareth.

Josephus did NOT remember that Jews and Romans worshipped Jesus of Nazareth as a God and that Jesus of Nazareth abolished the Laws of the Jews.

1. Josephus mention Jesus the son of Sapphias but NOTHING about Jesus of Nazareth, the son of the Jewish God.

2. Josephus wrote about Jesus the son of Gamala but NOTHING of Jesus of Nazareth, the son of the Jewish God.

3. Josephus wrote about Jesus son of Ananus but NOTHING of Jesus of Nazareth, the son of the Jewish God??

4. Josephus wrote about Jesus the son of Thebuthus and NOTHING about Jesus of Nazareth, the son of the Jewish God.

5. Josephus wrote about Jesus the Son of Damneus but NOTHING of Jesus of Nazareth, the son of the Jewish God.

6. Josephus wrote about Jesus the son of Gamaliel but NOTHING of Jesus of Nazareth, the son of the Jewish God.

Jesus of Nazareth was UNKNOWN during the time of Josephus c 39-100 CE.

1. Life of Flavius Josephus

Quote:

So Jesus the son of Sapphias, one of those whom we have already mentioned as the leader of a seditious tumult of mariners and poor people, prevented us, and took with him certain Galileans, and set the entire palace on fire, and thought he should get a great deal of money thereby, because he saw some of the roofs gilt with gold.

2. Life of Flavius Josephus

Quote:

When therefore he had received such an exhortation, he persuaded the high priests, Ananus, and Jesus the son of Gamala, and some others of the same seditious faction, to cut me down, now I was growing so great, and not to overlook me while I was aggrandizing myself to the height of glory; and he said that it would be for the advantage of the Galileans, if I were deprived of my government there.

3. Wars of the Jews 6.5

Quote:

But, what is still more terrible, there was one Jesus, the son of Ananus, a plebeian and a husbandman, who, four years before the war began, and at a time when the city was in very great peace and prosperity, came to that feast whereon it is our custom for every one to make tabernacles to God in the temple, (23) began on a sudden to cry aloud, "A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house, a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides, and a voice against this whole people!" This was his cry, as he went about by day and by night, in all the lanes of the city...

4.Wars of the Jews 6.5

Quote:

3. But now at this time it was that one of the priests, the son of Thebuthus, whose name was Jesus, upon his having security given him, by the oath of Caesar, that he should be preserved, upon condition that he should deliver to him certain of the precious things that had been reposited in the temple (29) came out of it, and delivered him from the wall of the holy house two candlesticks, like to those that lay in the holy house, with tables, and cisterns, and vials, all made of solid gold, and very heavy. He also delivered to him the veils and the garments, with the precious stones, and a great number of other precious vessels that belonged to their sacred worship.

5. Antiquities of the Jews 20.9

Quote:

Whereupon Albinus complied with what they said, and wrote in anger to Ananus, and threatened that he would bring him to punishment for what he had done; on which king Agrippa took the high priesthood from him, when he had ruled but three months, and made Jesus, the son of Damneus, high priest.

6. Antiquities of the Jews 20.9

Quote:

And now Jesus, the son of Gamaliel, became the successor of Jesus, the son of Damneus, in the high priesthood, which the king had taken from the other; on which account a sedition arose between the high priests, with regard to one another; for they got together bodies of the boldest sort of the people, and frequently came, from reproaches, to throwing of stones at each other.

We would expect Josephus to mention persons who IMPACTED the Jews and the Roman Empire in the 1st century and he did just that.

Jesus of Nazareth, the Sacrificied Son of the Jewish God, made ZERO impact on the Roman Empire in the time of Josephus.

But, almost 100 years later, Celsus wrote about the Jesus stories.

Jesus of Nazareth IMPACTED the 2nd century.

Jesus of Nazareth was invented after 115 CE.

TedM · 01-16-2013, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

So aa, I take it you disagree with Price (quoted again below). In what way do you disagree? Why would contemporary Roman or Jewish non-believers be expected to write about Jesus?

Quote:

I do not think that its some shocking thing to find little to nothing in extrabiblical sources because if the gospels are true in every respect historically what would your pagan newspaper editor, so to speak, have known? He would have said "oh there's another faith healer and exorcist? well they're a dime a dozen" You wouldn't expect to find much about Jesus, so that has never struck me as a powerful argument.

If the NT is true then Jesus of Nazareth was considered to be the Son of God who was sacrificied for the Remission of Sins and made the Laws of the Jews obsolete.

Galatians 2:16 KJV

Quote:

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified .

If the NT is true then Paul was preaching all over the Roman Empire that NO MAN is justified by works but by Faith in Jesus.

If the NT is true, Jesus of the NT, the Sacrificied Son of God was the most significant Jewish character in the 1st century--A UNIVERSAL Savior of Jews and Gentiles.

However Josephus did NOT remember Jesus of Nazareth.

Your argument appears to be that a historian would have mentioned the NT Jesus because he would have been extremely significant if IN FACT JESUS WAS THE SAVIOR. That's not addressing the issue that Price was referencing, I don't think.

I think he was saying that if in fact Jesus had said and done the things that the PUBLIC had witnessed in the gospels, it wasn't very newsworthy outside Christian circles. I don't think he meant that everyone knew about Paul's travels and that Jesus truly was the son of God. I don't think he was addressing the TRUTH of the theological message--rather the truth of actions and sayings that a 'reporter/historian' would have been able to witness or fairly easily verify from multiple witnesses.

aa5874 · 01-16-2013, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

Your argument appears to be that a historian would have mentioned the NT Jesus because he would have been extremely significant if IN FACT JESUS WAS THE SAVIOR. That's not addressing the issue that Price was referencing, I don't think.

I think he was saying that if in fact Jesus had said and done the things that the PUBLIC had witnessed in the gospels, it wasn't very newsworthy outside Christian circles. I don't think he meant that everyone knew about Paul's travels and that Jesus truly was the son of God. I don't think he was addressing the TRUTH of the theological message--rather the truth of actions and sayings that a 'reporter/historian' would have been able to witness or fairly easily verify from multiple witnesses.

Your claim is not logical. If Jesus did exist and was believed to be the Son of the God of the Jews, the Messiah, who was Sacrificied for the Universal Remission of sins and abolished the Laws of the Jews according to the Jesus cult then we would expect such a character would have been mentioned by Josephus.

By c 100 CE, the stories, books and letters about Jesus, the Prophet, Son of God, the Creator, Messiah, Lord and Savior should have been well established and had impacted the Roman Empire with Churches when Josephus composed his works.

Josephus remembered Theudas the magician and Prophet who was decapitated--NOT Jesus of Nazareth who was CRUCIFIED on a Cross FOR the Sins of mankind.

Josephus mentioned people who did far LESS than Jesus in the NT.

Josephus mentioned Theudas the Magician and Prophet who deluded the people and got his head CUT-OFF.

Antiquities of the Jews 20

Quote:

1. NOW it came to pass, while Fadus was procurator of Judea, that a certain magician, whose name was Theudas, (9) persuaded a great part of the people to take their effects with them, and follow him to the river Jordan; for he told them he was a prophet, and that he would, by his own command, divide the river, and afford them an easy passage over it; and many were deluded by his words.

However, Fadus did not permit them to make any advantage of his wild attempt, but sent a troop of horsemen out against them; who, falling upon them unexpectedly, slew many of them, and took many of them alive.

They also took Theudas alive, and cut off his head, and carried it to Jerusalem. This was what befell the Jews in the time of Cuspius Fadus's government.

Jesus of Nazareth was INVENTED AFTER the writings of Josephus.

Again, Josephus wrote about the Egyptian False Prophet.

Wars of the Jews 2

Quote:

5. But there was an Egyptian false prophet that did the Jews more mischief than the former; for he was a cheat, and pretended to be a prophet also, and got together thirty thousand men that were deluded by him; these he led round about from the wilderness to the mount which was called the Mount of Olives, and was ready to break into Jerusalem by force from that place; and if he could but once conquer the Roman garrison and the people, he intended to domineer over them by the assistance of those guards of his that were to break into the city with him.

But Felix prevented his attempt, and met him with his Roman soldiers, while all the people assisted him in his attack upon them, insomuch that when it came to a battle, the Egyptian ran away, with a few others, while the greatest part of those that were with him were either destroyed or taken alive; but the rest of the multitude were dispersed every one to their own homes, and there concealed themselves.

Josephus, the PHARISEE wrote about characters called Jesus and False prophets but NEVER Jesus of Nazareth, the Son of the Jewish God.

In the NT, the PHARISEES considered Jesus a Blasphemer, a FALSE Prophet or of Beelzebub so Josephus had very good reasons to mention the Blaspheming False Prophet called Jesus who was Delivered up by the Sanedrin to be Crucified.

The Jesus story was INVENTED AFTER the writings of Josephus.

TedM · 01-16-2013, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

[quote Josephus remembered Theudas the magician and Prophet who was decapitated--NOT Jesus of Nazareth who was CRUCIFIED on a Cross FOR the Sins of mankind.

Josephus mentioned people who did far LESS than Jesus in the NT.

Very good point. This would seem to go against the idea that a Jewish historian--the one we know about--would not have mentioned Jesus, the faith healer, Messiah claimant.

Perhaps Price was referring to Roman historians..Which of them references the Egyptian prophet or Judas the Galilean?

aa5874 · 01-16-2013, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

[quote Josephus remembered Theudas the magician and Prophet who was decapitated--NOT Jesus of Nazareth who was CRUCIFIED on a Cross FOR the Sins of mankind.

Josephus mentioned people who did far LESS than Jesus in the NT.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

Very good point. This would seem to go against the idea that a Jewish historian--the one we know about--would not have mentioned Jesus, the faith healer, Messiah claimant.

Perhaps Price was referring to Roman historians..Which of them references the Egyptian prophet or Judas the Galilean?

Now that you have conceded my point is extremely good let us now look at Roman writers.

Tacitus and Suetonius did write about Predictions in Jewish writings of Messianic rulers at around c 70 CE.

If the NT is true then Jesus the Messianic ruler had ALREADY come and the Pauline writer and Evangelist would have been in the CITY of ROME telling Nero and the people of Rome that Jesus, the son of the Jewish God was the Messianic ruler.

Philippians 2

Quote:

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation , and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow , of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father...

Tacitus and Suetonius knew NOTHING of the Pauline Messianic ruler named Jesus.

Tacitus' Histories V

Quote:

Some few put a fearful meaning on these events, but in most there was a firm persuasion, that in the ancient records of their priests was contained a prediction of how at this very time the East was to grow powerful, and rulers, coming from Judaea, were to acquire universal empire.

These mysterious prophecies had pointed to Vespasian and Titus, but the common people, with the usual blindness of ambition, had interpreted these mighty destinies of themselves, and could not be brought even by disasters to believe the truth.

Nothing of Jesus of Nazareth the Messianic ruler and Son of God in Suetonius' writings c 115 CE.

Suetonius' Life of Vespasian

Quote:

A firm persuasion had long prevailed through all the East , that it was fated for the empire of the world, at that time, to devolve on some who should go forth from Judaea. This prediction referred to a Roman emperor, as the event shewed; but the Jews, applying it to themselves, broke out into rebellion, and having defeated and slain their governor , routed the lieutenant of Syria, a man of consular rank, who was advancing to his assistance, and took an eagle, the standard, of one of his legions....

We would expect that if the NT was true that Tacitus and Suetonius would have mentioned Jesus, the Messianic claimant, who was worshiped as a God "all over" the Roman Empire, even in Rome.

It is clear that Jewish and Roman writers wrote about the Expectation of a Jewish Messianic ruler c 70 CE but never mentioned Jesus of Nazareth, the son of God, Messiah, Lord and Savior.

The Jesus story as a Messianic ruler was INVENTED AFTER the writings of Tacitus and Suetonius--AFTER c 115 CE.

TedM · 01-16-2013, 09:29 PM

aa, I think you overlooked what I wrote about Price. I don't think he was addressing what he would expect if Jesus were widely considered to be the predicted Messiah. Here's what I wrote:

Quote:

I think he was saying that if in fact Jesus had said and done the things that the PUBLIC had witnessed in the gospels, it wasn't very newsworthy outside Christian circles. I don't think he meant that everyone knew about Paul's travels and that Jesus truly was the son of God. I don't think he was addressing the TRUTH of the theological message--rather the truth of actions and sayings that a 'reporter/historian' would have been able to witness or fairly easily verify from multiple witnesses.

Re Josephus, I conceded that Josephus probably would have written about Jesus. And, I think he probably did, although it was changed either a little or a lot to what we now see. You can't say it wasn't. We just don't know.

aa5874 · 01-16-2013, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

aa, I think you overlooked what I wrote about Price. I don't think he was addressing what he would expect if Jesus were widely considered to be the predicted Messiah. Here's what I wrote:

Quote:

I think he was saying that if in fact Jesus had said and done the things that the PUBLIC had witnessed in the gospels, it wasn't very newsworthy outside Christian circles. I don't think he meant that everyone knew about Paul's travels and that Jesus truly was the son of God. I don't think he was addressing the TRUTH of the theological message--rather the truth of actions and sayings that a 'reporter/historian' would have been able to witness or fairly easily verify from multiple witnesses.

Re Josephus, I conceded that Josephus probably would have written about Jesus. And, I think he probably did, although it was changed either a little or a lot to what we now see. You can't say it wasn't. We just don't know.

Well, don't you see the contradiction. The Gospels mean GOOD NEWS. The GOOD NEWS was to be preached to ALL NATIONS.

The Jesus story was GOOD NEWS.

Jesus of the NT was Most NEWSWORTHY.

The mere fact that we have 27 books about Jesus Christ and the mere fact that we have a Jesus cult must mean that if Jesus did exist that he was very newsworthy or that the very Christians wanted the OUTSIDERS to get the GOOD NEWS.

Mark 16:15 KJV

Quote:

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Luke 4:18 KJV

Quote:

The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted , to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised...

If Theudas and the Egyptian False Prophet were NEWSWORTHY then surely Jesus, the Son of God, who preached GOOD NEWS and healed the people must be expected to be Newsworthy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

Re Josephus, I conceded that Josephus probably would have written about Jesus. And, I think he probably did, although it was changed either a little or a lot to what we now see. You can't say it wasn't. We just don't know.

Now you admit that YOU don't know please stop giving the erroneous impression that he probably did. You just don't know what you are talking about.

I am arguing that Josephus wrote NOTHING about Jesus of Nazareth.

You don't know that Jesus of NAZARETH is not in Josephus.

TedM · 01-16-2013, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

I am arguing that Josephus wrote NOTHING about Jesus of Nazareth.

Its right there in the TF, aa. You can't deny that.

aa5874 · 01-17-2013, 05:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

I am arguing that Josephus wrote NOTHING about Jesus of Nazareth.

Its right there in the TF, aa. You can't deny that.

You are reading things into Josephus that are NOT there.

Josephus NEVER mentions NAZARETH.

Josephus NEVER mentions Jesus of NAZARETH.

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