Freethought & Rationalism Archive

pkurilla · 07-09-2004, 01:26 PM

According to this:
http://paleojudaica.blogspot.com/200...gospel-of.html

a previously-unknown, fairly complete text of the Coptic Gospel of Judas may have been discovered--the same Gospel that Irenaeus criticized. It will be interesting to see what the scholars make of this.

Rick Sumner · 07-09-2004, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pkurilla

According to this:
http://paleojudaica.blogspot.com/200...gospel-of.html

a previously-unknown, fairly complete text of the Coptic Gospel of Judas may have been discovered--the same Gospel that Irenaeus criticized. It will be interesting to see what the scholars make of this.

Charles Hedrick mentioned in a BR article last year that he had heard rumors of a copy of the gospel of Judas making rounds on the antiquities market.

Regards,
Rick Sumner

Rick Sumner · 03-29-2005, 07:13 PM

With apologies if this has already been posted, I haven't had the energy to keep up lately.

http://www.michelvanrijn.nl/artnews/judasgospel1.htm

The date on Hedrick's notes is interesting--it calls to mind a 2002 BR article Hedrick wrote, in which he observed that he'd seen the GJudas surface on the antiquities market.

It doesn't appear that the GoJ is a first person Gospel purporting to be by Judas, which would have been my first guess.

Regards,
Rick Sumner

Toto · 03-29-2005, 07:40 PM

It hasn't been posted here, but there has been some discussion on the JesusMysteries list. A translation is due to be published later this year.

Peter Kirby · 03-29-2005, 07:44 PM

Here is the Roberts-Donaldson translation of this section from Irenaeus (Adv. Haer. 1.31.1):

"Others again declare that Cain derived his being from the Power above, and acknowledge that Esau, Korah, the Sodomites, and all such persons, are related to themselves. On this account, they add, they have been assailed by the Creator, yet no one of them has suffered injury. For Sophia was in the habit of carrying off that which belonged to her from them to herself. They declare that Judas the traitor was thoroughly acquainted with these things, and that he alone, knowing the truth as no others did, accomplished the mystery of the betrayal; by him all things, both earthly and heavenly, were thus thrown into confusion. They produce a fictitious history of this kind, which they style the Gospel of Judas."

This section of Irenaeus has been known for a long time. Are there any mentions of tests, palaeographic or physical, being done to test the genuineness of the manuscript?

best,
Peter Kirby

Toto · 03-30-2005, 03:42 PM

Controversial Gospel to be Translated

Quote:

The 62-page papyrus manuscript of the text was uncovered in Egypt during the 1950s or 1960s, but its owners did not fully comprehend its significance until recently, according to the Maecenas Foundation in Basel.

The manuscript written in the ancient dialect of Egypt's Coptic Christian community will be translated into English, French and German in about a year, the foundation specialising in antique culture said today.

"We have just received the results of carbon dating: the text is older than we thought and dates back to a period between the beginning of the third and fourth centuries," foundation director Mario Jean Roberty said.

The existence of a Gospel of Judas, which was originally written in Greek, was outlined by a bishop, Saint Irenee, when he denounced the text as heretical during the second century.

. . .

The Maecenas Foundation, which aims to protect archaeological relics found in poor countries, hopes to organise exhibitions around the manuscript and to produce a documentary on the process of unravelling the text.

The full launch is due in Easter 2006.

Amaleq13 · 03-31-2005, 01:04 PM

Quote:

"Others again declare that Cain derived his being from the Power above, and acknowledge that Esau, Korah, the Sodomites, and all such persons, are related to themselves...

I understand how one might place all of these in the same category and I assume that Judas would also be included but I don't understand what is meant by the declaration. What, exactly, did it mean to claim that all of these derived their being from the Power above?

Quote:

...On this account, they add, they have been assailed by the Creator, yet no one of them has suffered injury. For Sophia was in the habit of carrying off that which belonged to her from them to herself.

These folks claimed to be victims of God despite no apparent injury but I don't understand the second comment. Is he putting them down as lacking wisdom?

Quote:

They declare that Judas the traitor was thoroughly acquainted with these things, and that he alone, knowing the truth as no others did, accomplished the mystery of the betrayal; by him all things, both earthly and heavenly, were thus thrown into confusion. They produce a fictitious history of this kind, which they style the Gospel of Judas."

I realize it isn't much to go on but can anything substantive be obtained about these people from his comments?

andrewcriddle · 04-01-2005, 08:37 AM

What I think is implied by Irenaeus is that the 'Cainites' separated the true transcendent God from the false God who created this messed up physical world.

They regarded the OT as representing the point of view of the evil world creator and hence the 'bad guys' in the OT are really the 'good guys' the people loyal to the true transcendent God and in rebellion against the creator. They derive their being from the 'power above' ie the true God and are thus not able to be controlled by the false world creator.

The evil creator sought to harm those in fellowship with the true God but could only harm their material outward form. Sophia, (the principle of wisdom deriving ultimately from the true God), kept safe their inner spiritual selves, which on the physical death of the material body return safely to her.

Judas is one of this enlightened company. By handing over Christ to be killed by the evil creator, he causes the creator to go too far, to attack that which he has no shred of justification in harming. This overreaching by the forces of oppression leads to their confusion and a prospect of general spiritual liberation.

(Some of the above is a paraphrase of what Irenaeus actually says, some of it fills in gaps on the basis of what other 'Gnostic' groups held.)

Andrew Criddle

Amaleq13 · 04-02-2005, 10:09 AM

Thanks, Andrew, that's exactly what I was looking for.

Quote:

By handing over Christ to be killed by the evil creator, he causes the creator to go too far, to attack that which he has no shred of justification in harming. This overreaching by the forces of oppression leads to their confusion and a prospect of general spiritual liberation.

That doesn't sound too far removed from Paul's reference to Christ's execution by the rulers of the age.

Toto · 04-03-2005, 12:43 PM

Stephen C. Carlson's blog has a comprehensive summary of the recent news on this gospel here, including a link to some speculation about the Swiss Maecenas Foundation from rogueclassicism

Quote:

. . . the Maecenas Foundation is 'chaired' by one Noryoshi Hiruchi (cf the article at van Rijn's site). Now I'm not sure about the transliteration of Japanese names, but NH is apparently an antiquities dealer who is somehow associated with the Shumeikei religious sect in Japan and has been questioned about authenticity before. The sect has poured piles of money into antiquities and has built a museum. My gut says there's something strange going on here (not least because the Maecenas Foundation itself doesn't appear to have a website ... in 2005!!!).

Shumeikei does have a website, and is associated with a Tokyo antiquities dealer named Noriyoshi Horiuchi. Comments about problems with forgery are at this link.

Quote:

We turn rapidly to the vexed question of authenticity, about which Horiuchi is extremely sensitive - indeed both my interviews with him were followed up with telephone calls repeating points he had made on this subject.

"Koyama san is a goddess, and so she cannot make a mistake," he explains to my astonishment. The majority of the pieces he acquired were bought from top dealers, at top prices; even so he has fielded many allegations of forgeries. "If I had accepted all the rumours of fakes, 60/70 percent of the collection would have disappeared," he claims. "Jealousy was always a problem. And then I am Japanese."

The implication is that the Japanese are seen as gullible buyers who, to save face, will never return a wrong object. "If there were any forgeries, I sent them back," he says, listing a whole series of eminent experts who examined the pieces. His sensitivity on this point probably stems from his own lack of formal art history training. He read law and then left Japan in the 1970s to study "in museums" and as a free listener in Basle. For a while he ran a small gallery in New Bond Street, dealing in Egyptian and Western antiquities, before returning to Tokyo and opening another gallery, where the fateful meeting with the Koyamas occurred.

I think this is up Vork's alley.

07-09-2004, 01:26 PM	#1
pkurilla Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 122	Gospel of Judas [MERGED] According to this: http://paleojudaica.blogspot.com/200...gospel-of.html a previously-unknown, fairly complete text of the Coptic Gospel of Judas may have been discovered--the same Gospel that Irenaeus criticized. It will be interesting to see what the scholars make of this.

03-29-2005, 07:13 PM	#3
Rick Sumner Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada Posts: 2,612	More on the Gospel of Judas With apologies if this has already been posted, I haven't had the energy to keep up lately. http://www.michelvanrijn.nl/artnews/judasgospel1.htm The date on Hedrick's notes is interesting--it calls to mind a 2002 BR article Hedrick wrote, in which he observed that he'd seen the GJudas surface on the antiquities market. It doesn't appear that the GoJ is a first person Gospel purporting to be by Judas, which would have been my first guess. Regards, Rick Sumner

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03-29-2005, 07:40 PM	#4
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	It hasn't been posted here, but there has been some discussion on the JesusMysteries list. A translation is due to be published later this year.

03-29-2005, 07:44 PM	#5
Peter Kirby Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: the reliquary of Ockham's razor Posts: 4,035	Here is the Roberts-Donaldson translation of this section from Irenaeus (Adv. Haer. 1.31.1): "Others again declare that Cain derived his being from the Power above, and acknowledge that Esau, Korah, the Sodomites, and all such persons, are related to themselves. On this account, they add, they have been assailed by the Creator, yet no one of them has suffered injury. For Sophia was in the habit of carrying off that which belonged to her from them to herself. They declare that Judas the traitor was thoroughly acquainted with these things, and that he alone, knowing the truth as no others did, accomplished the mystery of the betrayal; by him all things, both earthly and heavenly, were thus thrown into confusion. They produce a fictitious history of this kind, which they style the Gospel of Judas." This section of Irenaeus has been known for a long time. Are there any mentions of tests, palaeographic or physical, being done to test the genuineness of the manuscript? best, Peter Kirby

04-01-2005, 08:37 AM	#8
andrewcriddle Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Birmingham UK Posts: 4,876	What I think is implied by Irenaeus is that the 'Cainites' separated the true transcendent God from the false God who created this messed up physical world. They regarded the OT as representing the point of view of the evil world creator and hence the 'bad guys' in the OT are really the 'good guys' the people loyal to the true transcendent God and in rebellion against the creator. They derive their being from the 'power above' ie the true God and are thus not able to be controlled by the false world creator. The evil creator sought to harm those in fellowship with the true God but could only harm their material outward form. Sophia, (the principle of wisdom deriving ultimately from the true God), kept safe their inner spiritual selves, which on the physical death of the material body return safely to her. Judas is one of this enlightened company. By handing over Christ to be killed by the evil creator, he causes the creator to go too far, to attack that which he has no shred of justification in harming. This overreaching by the forces of oppression leads to their confusion and a prospect of general spiritual liberation. (Some of the above is a paraphrase of what Irenaeus actually says, some of it fills in gaps on the basis of what other 'Gnostic' groups held.) Andrew Criddle

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