Dave31

I did a search here looking around for more info on Luke, John the baptist and Jesus' birth, shepherds & their flock. Nothing came up here. I'm curious what the latest arguments are regarding Luke 2:7-8:

"And she brought forth her first born son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and? laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn. And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night."

You know the drill, some claim Jesus couldn't have been born in the winter because it would've been too cold to be "keeping watch over their flock by night," but, I've read Jewish scholars who lived in the area most of their lives say that it was not uncommon.

Part of the case for mythicism shows a pre-Christian archetype with shepherds and their flock. For example:

There's plenty of talk about shepherds & their flock throughout the bible as well as across many pre-Christian pagan religions. It seems like another archetype to me.

Plus, we have John the baptists' birthday celebrated three days after the summer solstice known as St. John's Day on June 24th, which is 6 months prior to Jesus' birth as described in the bible in the 1st chapter of Luke, which puts Jesus' birth at Christmas.

tanya

Thank you Dave, for the reference to Luke 2, regarding the birth of Jesus. I don't find anything in that passage suggestive of winter solstice, nor of mythical qualities. It seems to be just a simple narrative, without significance.

Perhaps it is simply my ignorance here: I don't perceive anything remotely mythical about fishermen, or shepherds, or farmers, or warriors or kings.

Those activities strike me, at least, as ordinary, conventional, typical human labors and occupations.

I define, perhaps idiosyncratically, mythical, as possessing supernatural qualities or capabilities. So, for example, the description in Mark of Jesus walking on water. That's sufficient for me to judge the gospel of Mark as a work of fiction describing a mythical character, Jesus of Nazareth. I know that he is mythical, not historical, because of some of the Greek versions' presentation of Mark 1:1, claiming that he was the son of god. That's mythical stuff, in my book. Shepherds watching their flock, day and night, winter or summer, is, in my opinion, genuine human travail.

Toto

This is not one of the better arguments for mythicism. The birth story in Luke is regarded as a mythical overlay of the historical Jesus by everyone except inerrantists. Paul and Mark know nothing about it, and it is inconsistent with Matthew's version.

There is so much misinformation about Mithra, that it is better not to quote from sources like this.

From the Amazon link: "Nabarz, a Mithras revivalist, Sufi and practicing dervish, offers a book that is part history-primer, part practical guide "designed to help the spiritual seeker develop a deeper understanding of the Mithraic mysteries," and perform initiation rites and Mirthraic liturgy."

The usual response to this is point that Mithras was not born, but emerged from a rock, and the only evidence connecting shepherds to this event dates to the second century. Christians claim that Mithraism borrowed this element from Christianity, or it could be some sort of archetype, as you say. But it's not an argument for a mythical Christ, only for a mythical addition to the story. Most Christian apologists are happy to concede this point.

That link doesn't seem to have anything to do with shepherds and it conflates the shepherds in Luke with the Magi in Matthew. :huh:

The content of that video is similar to the contents of Joseph Cambell, which I read when I first started reading about this issue. The figure of John the Baptist in the gospels is highly symbolic. But it is hard to say if this figure is a mythologized version of the historical figure described in Josephus, or myth all the way down.

Chili

No shepherds, no sheep and no solstice but just eidetic amages or shepherds on the run to identify turmoil in the life of Joseph who was a carpenter but also an upright Jew. These two character traits created conflict in the mind of Joseph who so was on a collision course with himself [like the Titanic and the Iceberg] and reached the darkest night of his soul when Christ was born unto him . . . and so also the end of his world.

Oh and it is obvious that the Jewish experts do not know much about sheep ranching as they might have thought that there was something wrong here.

Dave31

That's not exactly what I was referring to with my comment there. I was simply asking what the latest arguments were for that scripture. My post was quick and a bit sloppy. I apologize for that. There are certainly mythical motifs that go along with several pre-xian pagan religions regarding shepherds and their flock though.

Regarding the solstice, the Gospel of John 3:30 "He must increase, but I must decrease."

As pointed out in the video above, the summer solstice to winter solstice the sun could be said to "decrease" in strength while from the winter solstice to the summer solstice, it would be increasing in strength. Both Jesus and John are personifications of the SUN.

aa5874

If you carefully examine the gLuke version of the birth of Jesus it is extremely significant.

gLuke version of the birth of Jesus totally contradicts gMatthew's version.

1. In gMatthew, the birth of Jesus is extremely secretive. Even God does NOT want Herod to know where the baby Jesus is born.

2. In gMatthew, the Magi were told by God in a dream NOT to reveal to Herod where baby Jesus born.

3. In gMatthew, Joseph and Mary were told by an ANGEL to go to Egypt to get away from the wrath of Herod.

4. In gMatthew, it is claimed Herod Killed all the children 2 years and younger simply because the Magi did NOT return to tell him where Jesus was born.


Now, it MUST be noted that the author of gMatthew claimed it was God and an ANGEL that gave the orders to CONCEAL the place where Jesus was born and the place where he would HIDE.

Well, gLuke's ANGELS did the very opposite.

gLuke's ANGEL told the shepherds EXACTLY where Jesus was born, the name of the city, and even the clothes he was wearing.

Luke 2.10-12 And in turn, gLuke's Shepherds told people what the ANGELS told them.

Luke 2 gLuke totally CONTRADICTS gMatthew. On the very day Jesus was born it was MADE PUBLIC by gLuke's ANGEL and the shepherds did find Jesus and told others of his birth.

In gLuke the baby Jesus was claimed PUBLICLY to be the Messiah by the angel and the shepherds DID TELL people what the angel said.

NO such thing happened in gMatthew. Herod KILLED all the Children 2 years and under in Bethlehem because God and the ANGEL did NOT tell anyone.

How is it possible that gLuke or gMatthew could have been so wrong about the birth of Jesus?

In gMatthew, it is TOTALLY secrecy and genocide.

In gLuke, it is a ANGELIC PUBLIC announcement and celebration.

gLuke's Angel could NOT be gMatthew's Angel.

But, there is a COMMON agreement, the Jesus of gMatthew and gLuke was the Child of a Ghost.

Dave31

Well, that's not what I'm getting at. It certainly is part of an archetype in pre-xian religions though. It's even all over the old testament. Perhaps this thread should be deleted because it probably should be split into a few different threads. I thought people here would know more about the archetype of shepherds and their flock. Plus, I've added other topics in that convolute the questions I'm really trying to get at. My bad for rushing.

Toto

We don't delete threads. You can take your time.

Dave31

Okay, fair enough. I just won't expect an educated answer on this here. So, just have fun with it then.

There are several things that need to be known. The shepherd metaphor shows up more than five hundred times in the bible alone. Of course, that doesn't include any other religions. It's often used as an archetype or model for spiritual leadership. Jesus was called the "Chief Shepherd" in 1 Peter 5:4. Psalm 23:1 "The Lord is my shepherd...." The apostles were considered shepherds too.

This is similar to the fisherman archetype, i.e. 'the fisher of men.'

Toto

We all know that. The gospels were written in an agricultural society, and are full of references to shepherds, craftsmen, farmers, etc., all of which have symbolic meanings or are used in parables and allegories.

I think you want to draw a larger conclusion from this than may be warranted.