sugarhitman

Only to the blind my friend. But anyways answer me this: Before the Babylonian dispersion, did Israel have the territory that was once held during the time of David often refered to as 'Greater Israel'? No. But yet Israel was considered a nation by the biblical God. After Israel was restored after the first dispersion it did not have the territory of David nor Joshua. But yet it was considered a restored nation, and Jesus refered to this diminished kingdom as "ISRAEL." My point is that whether having little or all the land of Israel it was considered a NATION. Israel today does not have all the land promised but it is still a NATION. It is a RESTORED NATION having as its capital JERUSALEM. That is my point, my friend...is it clear now? And scripture make it clear that when the time of the Gentiles are up Israel will recieve all the land promised....for eternity. :wave:

Jack the Bodiless

Sugarhitman, why do you keep making exactly the same blunder, over and over again?

The Jews of the Diaspora were SCATTERED. They weren't carried off and held in CAPTIVITY in other countries.

The CAPTIVES were the victims of the BABYLONIAN CAPTIVITY, also known as the BABYLONIAN EXILE.

Jack the Bodiless

Yet another date-of-authorship issue. Nobody really knows when Hosea was completed. Parts of it apparently date to the Assyrian captivity (which was earlier than the Baylonian one), and parts are considered to have been added by a later scribe (who may have known about the Babylonian captivity also).
We still haven't seen a single prophecy which states that the Jews will return to their homeland after a scattering or exile that definitely rules out the Assyrian and/or Babylonian ones.

sugarhitman

When Rome destroyed Israel they were forbidden to restore this nation, this is what contitutes captivity of the Jews by not allowing them to reclaim state-hood in their land. they may be able to move freely in other countires but if they could not reclaim their ancient home land and nation they are in fact in captivity. :wave:

arnoldo

Yes, Israel has been dispersed to the nations various times in it's history and miraculously they have returned to their homeland every time. The first dispersion is when the Jews when down into Egypt for 400 years, next the Assyrians conquered them & then the Babylonians. Every time they returned to their homeland. The Last Dispersion is after the Romans scattered the Jews into all the nations. Miraculously, the Jews have returned.

Johnny Skeptic

Your arguments are not valid. Genesis 17:8 says "And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, ALL the land of Canaan, for an EVERLASTING possession; and I will be their God." Regarding the words ALL, and EVERLASTING, the prophecy failed on both counts. How do you explain the word "everlasting"? What did the writer intend for his audiences at that time and in subsequent generations to believe? Why do you continue ask me questions and refuse to answer my questions? In your opening post, you falsely claimed that Israel has been restored, even though Genesis 17:8 proves that it has not been restored. Even more important, the word "everlasting" demolishing all of your arguments. The word "everlasting" surely implies that the writer of Genesis 17:8 believed that Abraham and his descendants would ALWAYS occupy ALL of the ancient land of Canaan. No other explanation makes any sense.

You obviously do not understand what you read. Genesis 17:8 refers to ALL of the land of ancient Canaan, not just to Jerusalem. The verse never says that Jews occupying Jerusalem would be a fulfillment of prophecy. You made that up yourself. If God gave Frank one dollar as an everlasting possession, and Frank lost the dollar, and God gave Frank twenty-five cents, would you call that a fulfilled prophecy?

Why were Abraham's group kicked out of Palestine? Why didn't God protect them? Why would God protect Jews and kill them by various means such as parasites, which by the way have killed more people than all of the wars in history, and plagues?

Jack the Bodiless

Nope, you're still missing the fact that this was written just after the Babylonian Captivity.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with Rome.

Indeed, even if you accept the fundie dating of Deuteronomy, it would STILL not apply: because there's nothing which tells the reader "skip the Assyrian and Babylonian abductions that are yet to come, I'm not talking about those".

Johnny Skeptic

That is completely false. Returned to what? Certainly not to what Genesis 17:8 promised. Genesis 17:8 says that God promised to give Abraham and his descendants ALL of the land of Canaan as an EVERLASTING covenant. Obviously, the prophecy failed on both counts. Today, Jews do not nearly occupy ALL of the ancient land of Canaan, and their current occupation of PARTS of Palestine are most certainly not part of an EVERLASTING covenant. How does the word "everlasting" apply to Genesis 17:3?

If God said that he would give Frank one dollar as part of an everlasting covenant, and Frank lost the dollar, and God gave Frank twenty-five cents, would you call that fulfilled prophecy?

Even if God is able to predict the future, so what? There is not a necessary correlation between power and good character.

If the Bible predicted that God will send everyone to hell, you would reject it, but why? If you really believed that God is able to predict the future, you would believe the Bible if it said that God will send everyone to hell, which of course you wouldn't, which proves that it is not the QUALITY of evidence that interests you, but what the evidence PROMISES. Your emotional perceived self-interest has caused you to abandon logic and reason.

Jack the Bodiless

Even if true, there would be nothing especially miraculous about this, because on all the previous occasions they were never far from their homeland (they were elsewhere in the Middle East). But the Exodus was fiction, and some tribes taken by the Assyrians never returned (hence the legend of the "Lost Tribes of Israel". Thus, the return from Babylon was the only prior successful return.

...And that's the time period that these out-of-context quotes keep being mined from.

It would be perfectly reasonable to expect somebody to declare "We'll be back!" after each relocation: no prophetic ability required, just wishful thinking and a declaration of intent. But, apparently, nobody thought to do this after the Roman dispersal, the Diaspora. We still have no specific prophecy of the restoration of Israel after THAT event (at least, not from the Bible: there might be a late Jewish text somewhere that expresses this hope).

arnoldo

Israel in fact never occupied the entire land promised to them by Abraham, it's still waiting for it's prophetic fullfilment. Even at the height of ancient Israel's power, under Solomon, it didn't possess all the land. Once Israel possesses all of the land then will never be disperesed into the nations as they have repeatedly in their long history. Note the following verse Amos 9:13

Obviously Israel has been uprooted from their land many times but it clearly says after the exiled return they will never be uprooted again. That is why it's called a prophesy,ie, something that will happen in the future.