Steven Carr

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/progra...m_wright.shtml

' I have come to see the stories in Matthew and Luke about the Virgin Birth as stories which are as historians often find, so strange in themselves, that if you tried to figure out how those stories could've come about unless there was substantial truth at the heart of it, it's actually harder to do that then to see them as I do, as people saying 'This is really very odd. We know there are lots of stories like this out there in the pagan world.' I mean Augustus - there were stories about a miraculous birth and so on, and round the same time.'

Were Christians really saying that there were lots of stories like this out there in the pagan world?

GakuseiDon

Yes, I think Justin Martyr is the earliest to point out similarities between Chrisitianity and other pagan myths with regards to miraculous births. Also Origen did as well IIRC.

CX

I'm actually in the process of reading Excavating Jesus and there is a lengthy discussion about the infancy narrative in Matthew. When I get home I'll look it up, but the jist of it is that unplaesant associations from the virgin birth story in Matthew brought about a "evangelical layer" of tradition that required a response. Ante nicene church fathers do refer to the existence of miraculous birth stories in pagan mythology as demonically originated copies of the Jesus story. Interestingly, from our perspective today, is that fact that in the OT, miraculous births are generally miraculous because of the advanced age and infertility of the parties involved. A miraculous birth that is the result of a coupling between a virgin and a deity is a wholly Hellenistic archetype that is totally foreign to Jewish theology.

GakuseiDon

Actually, that isn't quite right, at least from Justin's perspective. Often people write as if Justin is claiming that the demons were trying to copy the stories in the gospels, but that isn't the case.

According to Justin, pagan mythology were demonically inspired copies of the OT's prophecies regarding Jesus. Justin makes the point that the demons didn't understand the prophecies, which resulted in inferior or distorted versions of them when inspiring pagan ideas about their gods. But for Justin, the demons were copying from Jewish ideas. Early church fathers also liked to claim that ancient Greek philosophers like Plato, etc, got their ideas from Jewish writings, which predate the philosophers' writings.

Dave Roberts

There are a few mentioned here.

http://laluni.helloyou.ws/netnews/bk.../beth1019.html

GakuseiDon

There you go, Steve! :wave: Lots of similarities there.

Dave Roberts

And the possible beginning of the story, esp. the New Testament section.



http://www.usbible.com/usbible/default.htm

gregor2

GDon

Your post from above seems like a close paraphrase from Koester, History, Culture, and Religion of the Hellinistic Age, (page 138, top paragraph).

Coincidence?

GakuseiDon

Do you mean my comment re Justin's passage that the demons were copying from the OT? That's my own comment - I haven't read Koester's book. But I'm not surprised that it's similar, as we'd both be summarizing the same passage.