Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Josie · 03-24-2004, 07:56 PM

mods I'm not sure if this should be here or S&S, please move if needed.

I'm reading a book on the origins of the bible, and came across something odd. One of the theories listed for the cause of the plagues is Velikovsky's cosmic upheaval, caused by a near miss collision of Earth and Venus. My question is, does Venus have a problem maintaining a stable orbit that I was unaware of, or is this Velikovsky more full of shit than the usual run of apologetics are?

If anyone could point me in the right direction I would greatly appreciate it.

Peter Kirby · 03-24-2004, 08:07 PM

Isaac Asimov writes: "Although these plagues, if they had taken place as described in the Bible, must have loomed large in any contemporary records or in later histories, no reference to them is to be found in any source outside the Bible. In 1950, Immanuel Velikovsky, in his book Worlds in Collision attempted to account for the plagues (and for some other events described in the Bible) by supposing that the planet Venus had undergone a near collision with the earth. The book created a moderate sensation among the general public for a while, but the reaction of astronomers varied from amusement to anger, and the Velikovskian theory has never, for one moment, been taken seriously either by scientists or by Biblical scholars." (Asimov's Guide to the Bible, p. 138)

best,
Peter Kirby

Kosh · 03-24-2004, 08:28 PM

Archeology (The Bible Unearthed, Finkelstein) has shown that the Exodus is mythical. Thus, so are the plagues. No further explanation is needed.

Semblance · 03-24-2004, 08:40 PM

This brings back fond memories of reading Jim Meritt's commentaries on Velikovsky at talk.origins. Here is one link: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-velikovsky.html

Josie · 03-24-2004, 09:36 PM

I never doubted that the plagues were a myth, it was the idea that someone thought that there was that much variation in the orbits that bothered me. I had never heard of this guy before, and the book I'm reading didn't spend much time debunking him, just mentioned him briefly.

Thanks for the link, and the Asimov quote. The guy is just another nutter, and I don't have to worry about an Earth-Venus collision when I go to bed tonight.

Godless Wonder · 03-24-2004, 09:39 PM

The plagues made no damned sense in the first place.., of course they never occurred.

Moses turned all the water to blood, supposedly. (Yeah, right.)

So the pharoah's magicians do the only obvious thing to do when the entire country's water supply is turned to blood. . . of course . . . they also turn the water to blood, redundantly, again, only moreso. "See!?!? We can do that too!" I suppose they say.

The Pharoah, I imagine, roars Pharoanically, "What??? Wasn't the water already blood. You FOOLS!!! Get thee from mine sight!!!" what with his heart being so hardened and all, he fails to see the humor.

So, by and by, Moses and Aaron contrive to make another plague, this time, tada!!!! FROGS!!!!

So, the Pharoah's magicians, of course, naturally, as anyone would, why they make MORE FROGS!!!! Frogs for everyone!!!

I can only imagine the Pharoah says: "What!?!? You guys are still here??? I thought I fired you morons for that whole redundant blood thing."

Next Moses and Aaron contrive to bring about a plague of lice. And the magicians? The dolts attempt to, (a pattern emerges, you guessed it) make more lice. What could be more logical? Too many lice? Make more!!! Of course!!! But the magicians fail in this endeavor. Thus proving . . . well, it's not quite clear what that's supposed to prove.

Of course the Bible just relates this all as if it were perfectly ordinary. It's a comedy folks, it's a comedy that's somehow been abridged, mistranslated and mistaken for a sacred text.

It boggles my mind that anyone can take the Bible seriously.

JoeBaseball · 03-25-2004, 10:37 AM

Seems like as good a place as any for a first post...

I read a book years ago called "Unearthing Atlantis" which theorized that the volcanic eruption on the island of Thera (part of the Minoan Empire and relatively close to Egypt) could have contributed to the story of the plagues.

The eruption was supposedly more powerful than Krakatoa in the 1880s. Such a massive natural disaster so close to Egypt could--COULD--have had any number of effects on wildlife and sea temperature in the area, including Egypt.

Perhaps the author of Exodus remembered the cataclysm and thought it would make a great literary device to forward the plot.

03-24-2004, 07:56 PM	#1
Josie Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Mio MI Posts: 806	Cause of the plagues mods I'm not sure if this should be here or S&S, please move if needed. I'm reading a book on the origins of the bible, and came across something odd. One of the theories listed for the cause of the plagues is Velikovsky's cosmic upheaval, caused by a near miss collision of Earth and Venus. My question is, does Venus have a problem maintaining a stable orbit that I was unaware of, or is this Velikovsky more full of shit than the usual run of apologetics are? If anyone could point me in the right direction I would greatly appreciate it.

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03-24-2004, 08:07 PM	#2
Peter Kirby Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: the reliquary of Ockham's razor Posts: 4,035	Isaac Asimov writes: "Although these plagues, if they had taken place as described in the Bible, must have loomed large in any contemporary records or in later histories, no reference to them is to be found in any source outside the Bible. In 1950, Immanuel Velikovsky, in his book Worlds in Collision attempted to account for the plagues (and for some other events described in the Bible) by supposing that the planet Venus had undergone a near collision with the earth. The book created a moderate sensation among the general public for a while, but the reaction of astronomers varied from amusement to anger, and the Velikovskian theory has never, for one moment, been taken seriously either by scientists or by Biblical scholars." (Asimov's Guide to the Bible, p. 138) best, Peter Kirby

03-24-2004, 08:28 PM	#3
Kosh Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Orions Belt Posts: 3,911	Archeology (The Bible Unearthed, Finkelstein) has shown that the Exodus is mythical. Thus, so are the plagues. No further explanation is needed.

03-24-2004, 08:40 PM	#4
Semblance Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: USA Posts: 44	This brings back fond memories of reading Jim Meritt's commentaries on Velikovsky at talk.origins. Here is one link: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-velikovsky.html

03-24-2004, 09:36 PM	#5
Josie Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Mio MI Posts: 806	I never doubted that the plagues were a myth, it was the idea that someone thought that there was that much variation in the orbits that bothered me. I had never heard of this guy before, and the book I'm reading didn't spend much time debunking him, just mentioned him briefly. Thanks for the link, and the Asimov quote. The guy is just another nutter, and I don't have to worry about an Earth-Venus collision when I go to bed tonight.

03-24-2004, 09:39 PM	#6
Godless Wonder Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,197	The plagues made no damned sense in the first place.., of course they never occurred. Moses turned all the water to blood, supposedly. (Yeah, right.) So the pharoah's magicians do the only obvious thing to do when the entire country's water supply is turned to blood. . . of course . . . they also turn the water to blood, redundantly, again, only moreso. "See!?!? We can do that too!" I suppose they say. The Pharoah, I imagine, roars Pharoanically, "What??? Wasn't the water already blood. You FOOLS!!! Get thee from mine sight!!!" what with his heart being so hardened and all, he fails to see the humor. So, by and by, Moses and Aaron contrive to make another plague, this time, tada!!!! FROGS!!!! So, the Pharoah's magicians, of course, naturally, as anyone would, why they make MORE FROGS!!!! Frogs for everyone!!! I can only imagine the Pharoah says: "What!?!? You guys are still here??? I thought I fired you morons for that whole redundant blood thing." Next Moses and Aaron contrive to bring about a plague of lice. And the magicians? The dolts attempt to, (a pattern emerges, you guessed it) make more lice. What could be more logical? Too many lice? Make more!!! Of course!!! But the magicians fail in this endeavor. Thus proving . . . well, it's not quite clear what that's supposed to prove. Of course the Bible just relates this all as if it were perfectly ordinary. It's a comedy folks, it's a comedy that's somehow been abridged, mistranslated and mistaken for a sacred text. It boggles my mind that anyone can take the Bible seriously.

03-25-2004, 10:37 AM	#7
JoeBaseball Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Tennessee Posts: 5	Seems like as good a place as any for a first post... I read a book years ago called "Unearthing Atlantis" which theorized that the volcanic eruption on the island of Thera (part of the Minoan Empire and relatively close to Egypt) could have contributed to the story of the plagues. The eruption was supposedly more powerful than Krakatoa in the 1880s. Such a massive natural disaster so close to Egypt could--COULD--have had any number of effects on wildlife and sea temperature in the area, including Egypt. Perhaps the author of Exodus remembered the cataclysm and thought it would make a great literary device to forward the plot.

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