Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Arvel Joffi · 09-04-2003, 10:41 AM

I'm really bothered by Christian condemnation of homosexuality, but what especially gets me is that most of them - that I've spoken to - use the Old Testament, especially Leviticus, to back it up. But, other than dredging up stuff to picks on gays, most Christians tell me not to bother with the OT.

Does the NT, specifically "quotes" of Christ, bring up the subject? If it doesn't, then there are about a hundred obscure and arbitrary laws in Levicitus alone that the vast majority of Christendom chooses ignore with the same risk of damnation, or at least spiritual uncleanliness. But if Jesus said it, and they choose to believe in him, then there's no use arguing the point with them.

Well, there's no point in arguing with Babble thumpers most of the time, anyway. Faith vs reason just never gets very far.

Thanks!

Toto · 09-04-2003, 11:20 AM

There is nothing in the gospels on homosexuality, but Paul seems to condemn it in Romans 1:26-27. His reason is that it is "unnatural", not that God condemned it or that Jesus told him it was wrong.

Prior thread:

Homosexuality, Christianity, and "The Law"

Magus55 · 09-04-2003, 01:34 PM

Jesus states that humans were created as male and female, not male and male, or female and female.

Mat 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made [them] at the beginning made them male and female

Homosexuality is also mentioned in Romans, Corinthians, Timothy, and Revelation.

Arvel Joffi · 09-04-2003, 02:05 PM

Thanks, Toto.

Arvel Joffi · 09-04-2003, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Jesus states that humans were created as male and female, not male and male, or female and female.

Mat 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made [them] at the beginning made them male and female

That is not a condemnation of homosexuality. As quoted, it's impossible to even understand what context that statement is made in. "Have ye not read..." Who has not read, and in response to what.

I know I should just try to find the references myself, but I just can't stand reading the Bible.

Scandal · 09-04-2003, 05:03 PM

Hi Arveljoffi,
I agree that Mat 19:4 does not condemn homosexuality because further down the page, 19:10 it says: The disciples said to him, 'If that is how things are between husband and wife, it is advisable not to marry.' But he replied, 'It is not everyone who can accept what I have said, but only those to whom it is granted."

He goes on to talk about eunnuchs and I have read that he was really speaking about homosexuals but translators did not have a word for homosexual so used the word eunuch.

Sorry I don't have a source for my statement...

Magus55 · 09-04-2003, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ArvelJoffi
That is not a condemnation of homosexuality. As quoted, it's impossible to even understand what context that statement is made in. "Have ye not read..." Who has not read, and in response to what.

I know I should just try to find the references myself, but I just can't stand reading the Bible.

Then why do you care what it says about homosexuality? And whether Mat 19:4 is speaking of homosexuality or not ( which i think it is, since it is emphasizing that God created man and female to be together, not man/man, female/female) doesn't really matter because other parts of the NT forbid it.

-DM- · 09-04-2003, 09:16 PM

Quote:

MT 19.12:
For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother�s womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it.

The words here translated "eunuchs" are Strong's G2134 & 2135. They mean:

Quote:

Strongs Greek Dictionary:
G2134
From G2135; to castrate (figuratively live unmarried):�make . . . eunuch.

G2135
From (a bed) and G2192; a castrated person (such being employed in Oriental bed chambers); by extension an impotent or unmarried man; by implication a chamberlain (state officer):�eunuch.

This obviously has nothing to do with homosexuality unless you stretch the meaning "impotent or unmarried man" to include homosexuals.

-Don-

P.S. Note that I have had a few gay men try to convince me that Jesus supported homosexuality and that he was likely a homosexual himself. It simply doesn't wash based on anything in the Bible given the biblical injunctions (especially in the Old Testament) against homosexual behavior (especially on the part of men) and given that Jesus claimed to uphold the Law (the first five books of what we call the Old Testament and which include the injunctions against homosexual behavior).

-DM- · 09-04-2003, 09:23 PM

Quote:

LE 20.13:
And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Quote:

RO 1.26-32:
26For this cause God gave them up unto vile passions: for their women changed the natural use into that which is against nature: 27and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men working unseemliness, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was due.
28And even as they refused to have God in their knowledge, God gave them up unto a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30backbiters, hateful to God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31without understanding, covenant-breakers, without natural affection, unmerciful: 32who, knowing the ordinance of God, that they that practise such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but also consent with them that practise them.

Whether you agree with what the Bible says or not, I think that these two verses (and there are others as well) make it quite clear: the Bible condemns homosexual behavior.

Scandal · 09-05-2003, 11:23 AM

Hi DM,
I agree that part of the Greek translation of the word eunuch is as you have written but translating words from the bible is not as cut and dry as you may comfortably imagine.

If you search Faris Malik "Born Eunuchs", this essay may convince some that the eunuchs Jesus referred to as, "born that way", were homosexual men lacking sexual attraction to women.

Sorry, I haven't yet figured out how to post a link.

Also DM, I suggest that you read the prior thread that Toto linked to a few posts above.....

09-04-2003, 10:41 AM	#1
Arvel Joffi Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 3,359	Does the NT reference homosexuality? I'm really bothered by Christian condemnation of homosexuality, but what especially gets me is that most of them - that I've spoken to - use the Old Testament, especially Leviticus, to back it up. But, other than dredging up stuff to picks on gays, most Christians tell me not to bother with the OT. Does the NT, specifically "quotes" of Christ, bring up the subject? If it doesn't, then there are about a hundred obscure and arbitrary laws in Levicitus alone that the vast majority of Christendom chooses ignore with the same risk of damnation, or at least spiritual uncleanliness. But if Jesus said it, and they choose to believe in him, then there's no use arguing the point with them. Well, there's no point in arguing with Babble thumpers most of the time, anyway. Faith vs reason just never gets very far. Thanks!

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09-04-2003, 11:20 AM	#2
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	There is nothing in the gospels on homosexuality, but Paul seems to condemn it in Romans 1:26-27. His reason is that it is "unnatural", not that God condemned it or that Jesus told him it was wrong. Prior thread: Homosexuality, Christianity, and "The Law"

09-04-2003, 01:34 PM	#3
Magus55 Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: USA Posts: 7,204	Jesus states that humans were created as male and female, not male and male, or female and female. Mat 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made [them] at the beginning made them male and female Homosexuality is also mentioned in Romans, Corinthians, Timothy, and Revelation.

09-04-2003, 02:05 PM	#4
Arvel Joffi Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 3,359	Thanks, Toto.

09-04-2003, 05:03 PM	#6
Scandal Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Arizona Posts: 131	Hi Arveljoffi, I agree that Mat 19:4 does not condemn homosexuality because further down the page, 19:10 it says: The disciples said to him, 'If that is how things are between husband and wife, it is advisable not to marry.' But he replied, 'It is not everyone who can accept what I have said, but only those to whom it is granted." He goes on to talk about eunnuchs and I have read that he was really speaking about homosexuals but translators did not have a word for homosexual so used the word eunuch. Sorry I don't have a source for my statement...

09-05-2003, 11:23 AM	#10
Scandal Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Arizona Posts: 131	Hi DM, I agree that part of the Greek translation of the word eunuch is as you have written but translating words from the bible is not as cut and dry as you may comfortably imagine. If you search Faris Malik "Born Eunuchs", this essay may convince some that the eunuchs Jesus referred to as, "born that way", were homosexual men lacking sexual attraction to women. Sorry, I haven't yet figured out how to post a link. Also DM, I suggest that you read the prior thread that Toto linked to a few posts above.....

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