Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clarice O'C · 11-11-2005, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mata leao

it is truly humorous when i see atheists trying to lecture us on hell....okay.....and then the hat trick of using liberal theologians to lecture us on hell...as if atheists give credence to liberal theologians!

Why not? Liberal theologians who don't preach 'hell' are kinder people than xians who do.

John A. Broussard · 11-11-2005, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mata leao

it is truly humorous when i see atheists trying to lecture us on hell....okay.....and then the hat trick of using liberal theologians to lecture us on hell...as if atheists give credence to liberal theologians!

Right you are.

It's time to go back to the days of Jonathan Edwards' Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God.

No matter what the other's say, mata leao and Edwards are right. Their Angry God keeps stoking the fires of that hell while waiting in glee for all you atheists, Catholics, Nestorians, agnostics, Taoists, Manichaeans, Lutherans and whatever who refuse to grovel before the all-loving god. (including toddlers and all of the unborn who haven't recognized Jesus as their savior)

And you'll burn in agonizing torment, for ever, for ever, for EVER.

All of that is an expression of godly love, by the way.

FatherMithras · 11-11-2005, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mata leao
Harumi.......my friend....if you knowingly reject the salvation from your sins offered by Jesus Christ you are in fact going to Hell. Years of lukewarm watered down, pablum based liberal theology has revisionistically written off Hell. Big mistake. And the very fact that you asked the question indicates that you may have some concerns about it....study this as if your life depends on it son..........there is a reason why so many intellectual atheists in their later years begin to rethink the exiistence of God......

I hate when people try and pull out the "many atheists rethink the existence of God" bullcrap. Most atheists don't do this, and those who do are almost universally not intellectual disbelievers. Regardless, believing based on fear shows intellectual idiocy.

Helpmabob · 11-12-2005, 03:49 AM

Hi Atheos – The Allah of the Qu’ran does not offer a heartfelt guarantee of salvation. I worship the christian God who does.

Mageth – Hi, I don’t presume to tell you what to do, you are your own person. As for Hell – I don’t know how it is all going to pan out, but a separation from the creator God can be relied on I reckon.

Joan of Bark -

Quote:

According to Jesus, anyone who blasphemies the Holy Spirit (blasphemy is defined in my dictionary as: "to speak irreverently about something sacred") can NEVER have forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin.

I suggest that you have not (yet at least) personally known the blessing of the Holy Spirit. You are incapable of blaspheming against something you do not know. A man who knows the Holy Spirit will not speak against it – this may be Jesus’ point. God's love for us knows no bounds.

In response to the topic question: It is precisely because there is something to be saved from that the Bible is so strong on people becoming ‘saved’ (or having their relationship put right with God): I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. [Romans 1:16]

Clarice O'C · 11-12-2005, 05:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helpmabob

In response to the topic question: It is precisely because there is something to be saved from that the Bible is so strong on people becoming ‘saved’ (or having their relationship put right with God): I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. [Romans 1:16]

What we need to be saved from is ourselves. Our relationships with others need to be put right. I was ashamed of the gospel and sad about (my distorted view of) the fate of nonbelievers. Such naievete back then. Many nonbelievers have outgrown religion because it stifles their capacity to care for and about other people. Freedom to live 'at one' with the human race is impossible when caught up in any elitist, judgmental, exclusive, divisive system. But if that's what you want for your life and everyone else, keep having fun.:thumbs:

gregor · 11-12-2005, 06:21 AM

Helpma

I assume you recognize the hybridization of the "no true scotsman" fallacy with a tautology in your statement about blaspheming the holy spirit. No true person that knows the holy spirit blasphemes the spirit - so no one can ever violate this?

Clarice O'C · 11-12-2005, 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gregor

Helpma

I assume you recognize the hybridization of the "no true scotsman" fallacy with a tautology in your statement about blaspheming the holy spirit. No true person that knows the holy spirit blasphemes the spirit - so no one can ever violate this?

I've never understood what a 'holy spirit' is. Would you explain and describe it, please. Thank you.

John A. Broussard · 11-12-2005, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helpmabob

I am not ashamed of the gospel, [Romans 1:16]

You're not ashamed of a gospel where its divine inspirer orders the killing of an entire nation--except for the virgin babies reserved for raping by the conquering soldiers?

I am ashamed.

John123 · 11-12-2005, 09:08 AM

Hi Atheos – The Allah of the Qu’ran does not offer a heartfelt guarantee of salvation. I worship the christian God who does.

According to the bible neither does your christian god

Quote:

A Christian wrote:-

No Muslim can know he is saved or has eternal life.

Quran 23:102-103 says:-
"Then those whose balance is heavy (of good deeds-works) they will attain salvation: But those whose balance is light, will be those who have lost their souls; in hell will they abide."

The Bible says in Ephesians 2: 8-9:-
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and not of yourselves: it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast."

Why would anyone follow a "hope so" salvation when they can have a "know so" salvation? God's mercy-not getting what we deserve. God's grace- getting what we do not deserve.

Comment:-

You have quoted the words of Paul and even misunderstood those.

Jesus said:-
"Not every one that saith unto me Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but He THAT DOETH THE WILL OF MY FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN. Many will say to me in that Day: Lord, Lord, have we not prophecied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW YOU: DEPART FROM ME, YE THAT WORK INIQUITY." Matthew 7:21-23

The Apostle James wrote:-

"But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" James 2:20

But even Paul wrote:-

"Be not deceived: God is not mocked:for whatsoever a man soweth that shall he also reap." Galatians 6:7

Good works are those which have the correct intention behind them and are based on faith. But faith is a gift of God. Certainly God is forgiving if we repent.

It is also the case that the actions of a person modify him so that he becomes receptive to the Spirit of God. Salvation is the result of the activation of the Spirit in man. It is not, therefore, strictly speaking the actions that are responsible for salvation. But they are essential.

"O ye who believe! Respond unto Allah and His Messenger when He calls you to that which quickens you; and know that Allah comes in between a man and his own heart; and that He it is unto Whom ye shall be gathered." 8:24

What makes you differentiate between the "hope so" salvation and "know so" salvation?

You "know" something when you have achieved it. Until then it is a hope. What makes you think that your faith is accepted? Is it not a form of arrogance? And delusion? You might have misunderstood and it might be false or weak. Faith must be demonstrated in action. There is as much certainty and promise of salvation in the Quranic verse you quote as in the words of Paul.

Clarice O'C · 11-12-2005, 09:37 AM

Why do so many xians and other religious folk extend so much energy looking towards a supposed life after death? :huh: Because now ain't good enough fer ya?

Well, true, being religious is a very unhappy state of being. I remember. :crying: I feel badly for you.

But you have a choice :jump: Choose life

There's hope! Wakey wakey :bulb:

I love these little smiley things on this forum

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11-12-2005, 06:21 AM	#36
gregor Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 932	Helpma I assume you recognize the hybridization of the "no true scotsman" fallacy with a tautology in your statement about blaspheming the holy spirit. No true person that knows the holy spirit blasphemes the spirit - so no one can ever violate this?

11-12-2005, 09:37 AM	#40
Clarice O'C Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Hollywood, FL Posts: 408	Why do so many xians and other religious folk extend so much energy looking towards a supposed life after death? :huh: Because now ain't good enough fer ya? Well, true, being religious is a very unhappy state of being. I remember. :crying: I feel badly for you. But you have a choice :jump: Choose life There's hope! Wakey wakey :bulb: I love these little smiley things on this forum

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