Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Loomis · 10-04-2005, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cass256

now now, your story oculd still hold water even if the jews were monotheistic.
they left Egypt, and there was even a Pharoah that was monotheistic. The egyptions got rid of him. Maybe he passed moses on his way out.
It could very well be that El worshippers were in Egypt at a time when everyone who wasn't Egyptian got the boot.

I'm not sure that ever happened.

In any case, there appears to be a text from Kuntillet Ajrud that shows that El and Baal were worshipped as late as 721 BCE.

Quote:

When El shone forth {...} with the mountains melting to bless Baal in the day of batt[le], (Baal fought) to honor El in the day of batt[le].

cass256 · 10-04-2005, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loomis

I'm not sure that ever happened.

In any case, there appears to be a text from Kuntillet Ajrud that shows that El and Baal were worshipped as late as 721 BCE.

Yeah, Hosea wote about YHWH being called "my Baal" and how that would stop in the future. it was written around that time period.

Quote:

1 Hosea 2:16 And it shall be at that day, saith the LORD, that thou shalt call me Ishi; and shalt call me no more Baali.

Loomis · 10-04-2005, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pilate

The Jews became, eventually, monotheistic after they were exposed to Zoroastrianism (during their exile to Babylon). After that, they "remodeled" their Holy Scriptures, but they left some 'incriminating evidence' of polytheism in their writings.

Well … someone forgot to tell GJohn!

He thought El and Yahweh were a father and son. –A carry over from Ugarit circa 1200 BC.

Honestly – what is so abhorrent about the possibility that the “Jews�? believed different things?

Quote:

None of the authors of the New Testament believed that Jesus is Yahweh. This claim is a Christian Fundamentalist interpretation of the Scriptures.

I’m not suggesting any of the authors actually believed what they wrote. But it looks to me like the author of GJohn wanted his readers to believe Jesus was Yahweh incarnate.

If you think I’m overlooking something please speak up. I have shown why I think differently.

Loomis · 10-04-2005, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pilate

The Jews became, eventually, monotheistic after they were exposed to Zoroastrianism (during their exile to Babylon). After that, they "remodeled" their Holy Scriptures, but they left some 'incriminating evidence' of polytheism in their writings.

I posted this in another thread a while back:

Check out the evolution of Deuteronomy 43. Notice how phrases like divinities, and His sons, and sons of the Divine have been removed from modern translations.

From the Dead Sea Scrolls (4Qdeut-q):
O heavens, rejoice with Him
Bow to Him, all divinities.
For He’ll avenge the blood of His sons,
And wreak vengeance on His foes,
Requite those who reject Him,
And will cleanse His people’s land.

From the LXX:
O heavens, rejoice with Him
Bow to Him, all sons of the Divine.
O nations, rejoice with His People
And let all angels of the divine
Strengthen themselves in Him.
For He’ll avenge the blood of His sons,
Be vengeful and wreak vengeance
And recompense justice on His foes,
Requite those who reject Him,
And the Lord will cleanse His people’s land.

From the MT (NIV):
Rejoice, O nations, with his people,
for he will avenge the blood of his servants;
he will take vengeance on his enemies
and make atonement for his land and people.

It looks to me like “the Jews�? were still "remodeling" their Holy Scriptures as late as 900 CE ?? (The MT).

Gosh, was GJohn written before then?

Loomis · 10-04-2005, 11:40 PM

Of course no hypothesis would be complete without examining alternative hypotheses that attempt to explain the same facts. So lets take a look:

1001 Errors In The Christian Bible - Page 78 # 487

Quote:

John 1: (KJV) 18 “No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.�?

Regarding “the only�? part of “the only begotten Son�? above, the underlying Greek word means “unique�? as to kin or kind. Therefore, “the only�? is an acceptable translation which can indicate an only son but could also indicate “unique�? as in a son with a unique quality. This would fit the Gnostic understanding of Jesus where God was thought to have a large family and Jesus was special because he had a unique purpose. “Orthodox�? Christianity chose the “kin�? meaning and the rest is history. “Begotten�? though, which a majority of modern Christian translations have, is not in the underlying Greek, and is therefore a mistranslation. Obviously Christian translators are trying to emphasize a literal father/son relationship as opposed to a figurative one.

What’s Gnosticism got to do with anything?

Quote:

Psalm 89:6
Who in the skies can compare to Yahweh?
Who is like Yahweh among the sons of El?

This would fit the Jewish understanding of Yahweh where El was thought to have a large family and Yahweh was special because he had a unique purpose.

Loomis · 10-05-2005, 12:14 AM

1001 Errors In The Christian Bible - Page 83 # 524

Quote:

John 3: (KJV)

16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.�?

A famous quote of most translations based on a practically unknown mistranslation. The underlieing Greek is “The son the unique/only one he gave�?. Note that the Greek lacks “his�?, KJV’s “only begotten�? could be translated as “unique�? and the meaning could be that Jesus was the only son God gave the world and not the only son God had.

I agree.

This would fit the Jewish understanding of Yahweh where Yahweh had 69 siblings. Chemosh, Milcom, Shactar, Shalim, etc.

Loomis · 10-05-2005, 12:28 AM

1001 Errors In The Christian Bible - Page 87 # 546

Quote:

John 5: (KJV)

46 “For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.�?

Where?

Everywhere it says “Yahweh.�? :banghead:

cass256 · 10-05-2005, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loomis

1001 Errors In The Christian Bible - Page 87 # 546

Everywhere it says “Yahweh.�? :banghead:

I want to clarify after reading my posts; When I say that Israel could have been monotheistic. The idea was as a whole, in their religion. They were required to acknowledge only 1 god. The evidence in the HB was that moses slaughtered anyone who didn't follow YHWH. That was the law.
Now, do I think they all practiced Monotheism? Obviousloy not, as canbe seen from all the threats YHWH had to make to try to stay their one god. I have also pointed out that The people themselves were still worshipping Ashera, and I can say also doiing rituals with Moloch (sp). Also, I do believe there was a seperation between the Jews going for Yahweh,and Israel leaning towards El represented by the calf.

On the quote where Jesus claims moses wrote of him, the answer I often saw was in Peter's speach to explain that in acts.

Quote:

38 Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

However, if the Christians believed he was the Word, and god in part, it had to be Yahweh, because yahweh was the god of the Jews. he just couldn't seem to get them to stay law abiding and faithful to him.

cass256 · 10-05-2005, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loomis

1001 Errors In The Christian Bible - Page 83 # 524

I agree.

This would fit the Jewish understanding of Yahweh where Yahweh had 69 siblings. Chemosh, Milcom, Shactar, Shalim, etc.

Yes, and the law was that they were not to ever speak the name of another god.

Quote:

Exodus 23:13 And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth

So is is obviously there were plenty of god names out there.

Do you think, also, that where Christians have always believed Genesis was referring to Angels, it is now obvious that it was probably referrring to the 70 sons of EL?

Quote:

1 Genesis 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

Jedi Mind Trick · 10-05-2005, 09:59 AM

"Hayah asher Hayah"

I've read that the Cananite god Ea/Enki is referenced here.
The brake down being "I am Ea." A play on words that was missed the Yahwist editor.

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10-05-2005, 09:59 AM	#40
Jedi Mind Trick Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Indianaplolis Posts: 4,998	"Hayah asher Hayah" I've read that the Cananite god Ea/Enki is referenced here. The brake down being "I am Ea." A play on words that was missed the Yahwist editor.

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