FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.

Go Back   FRDB Archives > Archives > Religion (Closed) > Biblical Criticism & History
Reload this Page Doherty's Rebuttal to Ehrman is now a Kindle e-book
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Yesterday at 03:12 PM
Search

 
Page 6 of 28 « First 45 6 7816 Last »
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 11-10-2012, 08:35 AM   #51
Contributor
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: London UK
Posts: 16,024
Default
What is ideological about delineating "gnostic" ways of thinking and "catholic" ways?

You seem to be reacting "heretic" to her! Burn her!
Clivedurdle is offline  
Old 11-10-2012, 08:42 AM   #52
Contributor
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: MT
Posts: 10,656
Default
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toto View Post
What is Pagels' ideology? How do you define ideological? Why is Bart Ehrman not ideological? Why is a university curriculum in North Carolina more reliable than Harvard or Princeton?

Are you just throwing that label around without reason?
Elaine Pagels is a liberal. More relevantly, the scholarship of Elaine Pagels has a liberal bent. Liberalism is great when voting in democratic elections. I am all for it. It is not suitable for making decisions concerning ancient history, nor is any other ideology suitable. If Elaine Pagels wrote textbooks used in state-accredited colleges, then those textbooks would be suitable for getting an accurate understanding of ancient history. It would mean that the opinions expressed in those textbooks represent probable opinions generally held by the secular academic establishment, and the ideology of Elaine Pagels would be irrelevant. But, she instead writes popular books, vetted only by publishers interested in selling copies.
ApostateAbe is offline  
Old 11-10-2012, 08:50 AM   #53
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 3,619
Default
Quote:
Originally Posted by Horatio Parker View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rlogan View Post
Horatio Parker - you're saying you are "not sure" about something without actually locating what it is that you disagree with, and end up repeating essentially the same thing.
This:

Quote:
In the beginning Christ Crucified is "real" to them, but is not occuring at a time certain in the observable world.
I think they believed that reality in the upper world had an earthly component. All earthly occurrences are reflections of the eternal, and eternal occurrences are reflected on Earth. If Christ as a spiritual being exists in the upper world, then he also existed in the lower, in time and space. I suspect that, for them, acceptance of the spiritual Christ constituted proof of the earthly.

As I understand Doherty's theories, this is not a conflict, since Jesus had existed as a man before his cosmic struggle with the demons.

That the ancients had a view more like our own, that they could dispense with the need for particular earthly instantiations of the upper world, is appealing. But I've seen no direct evidence for it. If you know of any, please direct me.
It is still the same today among American Catholics and others, for them it is history and claim astonishment when the godless ones refuse to believe it.

In the 8th century the Orthodox priest Hieromonk was doing the Latin mass using unleavened bread. He doubted the power of the magic words under these conditions.
Quote:
During the Mass, when he said the Words of Consecration ("This is my body. This is my blood"), with doubt in his soul, the priest saw the bread change into living flesh and the wine change into live blood which coagulated into five globules, irregular and differing in shape and size (the number supposedly corresponds to the number of wounds Christ suffered on the cross: one in each hand and foot from the nails, and the wound from the centurion's spear)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_Lanciano
Iskander is offline  
Old 11-10-2012, 08:51 AM   #54
Contributor
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: London UK
Posts: 16,024
Default
Abe, I missed something. Do you have academic qualifications in this area?

Quote:
Harrington Spear Paine Professor of Religion at Princeton University
Why the hatred? Is it because she is a woman studying religion?
Clivedurdle is offline  
Old 11-10-2012, 08:52 AM   #55
Contributor
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: MT
Posts: 10,656
Default
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clivedurdle View Post
What is ideological about delineating "gnostic" ways of thinking and "catholic" ways?

You seem to be reacting "heretic" to her! Burn her!
Not at all! I just think we need to be especially choosy about how we get an accurate understanding of ancient beliefs. Almost all information predominant in the modern world claiming anything about what ancient people believed, not just the writings of Elaine Pagels, is bullshit. The reason why Elaine Pagels makes a distinction between "Gnostic" and "Catholic" ideas is so she could claim that the "Gnostic" ideas are much more preferable for modern Christianity. However, probable interpretations of ancient "Gnostic" beliefs are about as objectionable to modern progressive thinkers as the ancient "Catholic" beliefs.
ApostateAbe is offline  
Old 11-10-2012, 08:53 AM   #56
Contributor
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: MT
Posts: 10,656
Default
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clivedurdle View Post
Abe, I missed something. Do you have academic qualifications in this area?
No! No! No! Absolutely not!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clivedurdle View Post
Quote:
Harrington Spear Paine Professor of Religion at Princeton University
Why the hatred? Is it because she is a woman studying religion?
NO!
ApostateAbe is offline  
Old 11-10-2012, 08:54 AM   #57
Contributor
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: London UK
Posts: 16,024
Default
Quote:
In the 8th century the Orthodox priest Hieromonk was doing the Latin mass using unleavened bread. He doubted the power of the magic words under these conditions.
And my understanding is that it must be unleavened bread because that was eaten at Passover!
Clivedurdle is offline  
Old 11-10-2012, 08:56 AM   #58
Contributor
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: London UK
Posts: 16,024
Default
Quote:
NO!
So why are you reacting like this against her? What are you finding so threatening?

Your comments actually feel vicious.
Clivedurdle is offline  
Old 11-10-2012, 08:59 AM   #59
Contributor
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: MT
Posts: 10,656
Default
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clivedurdle View Post
Quote:
NO!
So why are you reacting like this against her? What are you finding so threatening?

Your comments actually feel vicious.
I made recommendations about what to read and what not to read, and then I was accused of sexism. Maybe you didn't mean it like that. I'll try to restrain myself.
ApostateAbe is offline  
Old 11-10-2012, 09:04 AM   #60
Contributor
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: London UK
Posts: 16,024
Default
Quote:
Almost all information predominant in the modern world claiming anything about what ancient people believed, not just the writings of Elaine Pagels, is bullshit. The reason why Elaine Pagels makes a distinction between "Gnostic" and "Catholic" ideas is so she could claim that the "Gnostic" ideas are much more preferable for modern Christianity. However, probable interpretations of ancient "Gnostic" beliefs are about as objectionable to modern progressive thinkers as the ancient "Catholic" beliefs.
You have misunderstood Pagels.

Kindly reread the New Testament and you will see these catholic and gnostic viewpoints throughout, almost in a continual dance. Arguably it has been edited to emphasise this discussion of viewpoints.

As Toto's quote notes above, yes the world was different but not completely different.

Quote:
"her ability to show readers that the ancient texts she studies are concerned with the great questions of human existence though they may discuss them in mythological or theological language very different from our own." ...
Take the gnostic and catholic perspectives as viewpoints. Interestingly they are not ancient, but actually can be found every day for example in a high mass or pentecostal service.

You have spent enough time in Pentecostal Churches, did you never sense these undertones? A preacher somewhere must have preached on these matters!
Clivedurdle is offline  
 
Page 6 of 28 « First 45 6 7816 Last »

« Previous Thread | Next Thread »
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 09:43 AM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.