Jeffrey Gibson

Even if you are correct (Luke used in "the liturgy"??), I'm dealing with the Greek text of the Gospels. I'll ask you to do so as well -- and then again only after you've read what I had to say about it, not what you think some non Greek text that is not my focus and my concern says.

I thought I asked that you not to ride your hobby horse. I guess you can't resist.

Jeffrey

stephan huller

sorry for mentioning the liturgy

mountainman

Isn't this an unreasonable preference, on the basis that
(1) those who have a working knowledge of Koine Greek in this forum are a miniscule percentage, and
(2) there is a great variety of adequate Greek to English translations of much material in the public domain.

Lord's Prayer




εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

Jeffrey Gibson

Until you know what the arguments are (many of which are based on points of Greek grammar and not just on the meaning of individual Greek words) and how they are worked out on the basis of Greek grammar and linguistic concerns, not to mention until you acquire sufficient ability in Greek to judge not only adequacy of the grammatical arguments but to say with any certainty whether or not the English translations of the Greek words and phrases I discuss, if there are such, are adequate), you won't know or be able to say, will you.

Jeffrey

stephan huller

For your viewing pleasure:

http://books.google.com/books?id=MpO...yer%22&f=false

Often times if you switch browsers (for me Chrome to Windows or using my smartphone) you get different pages to view and thus the entire document. There is a ton of interesting shit in this book.

Toto

the google book link is to The Lords Prayer in the Early Church (or via: amazon.co.uk) By Frederic H. Chase

It looks like there is a free ebook edition from Barnes & Noble

NOOK Book (eBook - Digitized from 1891 volume)

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/the-...ase/1026082079

Clivedurdle

I would argue there is no choice but to always involve liturgy and theological arguments, because we are looking at documents that have been through many many different hands.

The excavations at Knossos are to this point. They were severely criticised because somehow reconstructions of very ancient artefacts looked like something from Vogue or Art Deco. - Mary Beard Confronting the Classics. In the case of the Lord's Prayer what precisely is the original?

Beard also comments that many translations also are very misleading and betray biases of the translators, so that the reality is in several cases we do not know the original meanings

andrewcriddle

See also archive.org/lordsprayer

Andrew Criddle

Garon

Rocco A. Errico has a book about Jesus' prayer.

The book is "Setting a Trap for God The Aramaic Prayer of Jesus."

Jeffrey Gibson

This is a good book for those who wish to gain a grasp on how the LP/DP was handled in the Early Church. But it is not immediately relevant to what I am up to. You'd do far better to look up Joachim Jeremias' The Lord's
Prayer -- to see one of the targets of my arguments.

http://www.peacechurchrochester.org/...20Jeremias.pdf

Jeffrey