Freethought & Rationalism Archive

diana · 12-27-2003, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SkinWalker
Interesting topic, one that I've discussed with others off and again over the years.

The thing that strikes me first in your feedback-friend's message is that he confuses epistemology with religious belief. Many, if not most, people would have difficulty proving that George Washington was the first President and only know this because of what they've always been told. But "always been told" the story is where the similarities end in the analogy as far as I can see.

There are many first-person accounts of Washington (far more than Jesus) as well as portraits done as he modeled. Moreover, there are letters written in Washington's own pen by his own hand to many individuals that each provide corroboration to his Presidency. And the list goes on.

When examining the historical evidence of Jesus (and I'll certainly have a look at some of the other threads here on this? I've only just discovered Internet Infidels last night), we find very little corroboration beyond the gospels. Government records mark Washington's service to the United States. what government record exists to demonstrate the life of Jesus?

It is true that history was recorded differently 2000 years ago than it was 200 years ago, but there are many historical figures contemporary to and previous to the life of Jesus that have significantly more evidence, sometimes from multiple cultures. Archaeologists find artifacts and epigraphs that corroborate the existance of even simple merchants. One would think that a messiah would at least have more evidence of existence than Socrates.

Anyway, I won't dive into this any deeper for fear of restating/reviving established threads on the same issue as someone above suggested already exist. I'll go read a bit first

Welcome to II, SkinWalker. Nice rundown. Thank you.

In line with what you mentioned, Christians tend to smooth over or ignore outright the fact that we haven't a shred of information about Jesus from the time he lived--from himself, or even from his own family/friends/followers/government/members of the multitudes. But if the NT is to be believed, he worked many miracles before the multitudes, in Jerusalem and surrounding areas, not to mention that little "brought the dead to life" thing and corpses of the dead walking the streets when he died, etc. Nothing. Nada. Zip.

As far as the evidence we do have: the biblical evidence of Jesus' life is internally inconsistent and didn't surface until almost a century after he was supposed to have died, and the extrabiblical evidence, which appeared about the same time (?) is sketchy, at best, and what exists is overwhelmingly inconclusive.

Even if I were to spot the defense the credibility of the handful of extant texts that mention Jesus or his followers (and I don't--far from it), the Christian still must wonder why it is that the Jews of the time didn't recognize their own messiah in Jesus*, and why no one was moved to write a word about him during his earthly sojourn--if he was, indeed, "all that."

*I've actually heard what was supposedly a serious Christian answer to this question: "Because he wasn't what they expected a messiah to be."

:banghead:

d

offa · 12-27-2003, 02:07 PM

I heard on radio the other day that George Washington was not our first president and that he was about the fourth. The others who held that post were erased by George's compatriots.

Doctor X · 12-27-2003, 02:09 PM

This is not the same radio program that states that Star Fleet Command assassinated JFK?

--J.D.

offa · 12-27-2003, 02:40 PM

I don't know what station it was, I think it was 1100 am. I was a passenger.

This is not the same radio program that states that Star Fleet Command assassinated

Ummm, you listen to that stuff? Who is the Star Fleet Command?

I just thought it was curious that we assume that GW was our 1st president and this other person says he was not. Like, for instance, do not take anything for granite.

nermal · 12-27-2003, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by offa
Like, for instance, do not take anything for granite.

I once knew a geologist who always took things for granite. He didn't do very well in his field.

Ed

Doctor X · 12-27-2003, 03:03 PM

Star Fleet Command: you may not know them . . . but they know you. . . .

George Washington: the best I have ever heard is some guy--David Salem, methinks--wacked trivia sticks to the mind like a sticky thing--who was "president for a day." One of the guys who died happened to die late Saturday or early Sunday. The VP did not want to take an oath "on the Sabbath" so this guy acted as president for a day. He spent most of the time taking a nap.

Otherwise, I am aware of no one "acting" as president for GW--certainly not four guys.

Anyways, people love "neat" stories in history, but sometimes they are just a bit "too neat." For example "was Hitler Jewish" is a question that bats about occassionally. Who was probably the first homosexual president . . . no . . . you cannot name Clinton or Bush depending on your politics!

Dragging this kicking and screaming back to the topic did I mention the Patriots won, the relevance is level of evidence. People try to equate uncertainty. If we can make a real historical person "uncertain" then it somehow makes an uncertain character like Junior "real." This is not valid reasoning. GW is gone and buried and we have no living witnesses so how do you know he existed and was not a conspiracy set up by Star Fleet Command or, worse, Amway?

As other mentioned, you can point to letters written by him.

We do not have anything this tangible for Junior.

--J.D.

Doctor X · 12-27-2003, 03:06 PM

Ooops! 'Tis an Urban Legend.

Rather ironic, that.

--J.D.

offa · 12-27-2003, 03:16 PM

wow, that was fun. thanks Dr.X. Moderators, please acceptmy apologies for going off topic.

Doctor X · 12-27-2003, 03:17 PM

As is the There Were Four Presidents Before the Big Guy.

But Gore still claimed he invented the internet. . . .

--J.D.

Bob K · 12-28-2003, 03:47 AM

I recall reading that there were US Presidents under whatever was the equivalent of the US Constitution which enfranchised the Continental Congress, but G. Washington was the first US President under the US Constitution.

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12-27-2003, 02:07 PM	#22
offa Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Monroeville, Ohio, USA Posts: 440	I heard on radio the other day that George Washington was not our first president and that he was about the fourth. The others who held that post were erased by George's compatriots.

12-27-2003, 02:09 PM	#23
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	This is not the same radio program that states that Star Fleet Command assassinated JFK? --J.D.

12-27-2003, 02:40 PM	#24
offa Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Monroeville, Ohio, USA Posts: 440	I don't know what station it was, I think it was 1100 am. I was a passenger. This is not the same radio program that states that Star Fleet Command assassinated Ummm, you listen to that stuff? Who is the Star Fleet Command? I just thought it was curious that we assume that GW was our 1st president and this other person says he was not. Like, for instance, do not take anything for granite.

12-27-2003, 03:03 PM	#26
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	Star Fleet Command: you may not know them . . . but they know you. . . . George Washington: the best I have ever heard is some guy--David Salem, methinks--wacked trivia sticks to the mind like a sticky thing--who was "president for a day." One of the guys who died happened to die late Saturday or early Sunday. The VP did not want to take an oath "on the Sabbath" so this guy acted as president for a day. He spent most of the time taking a nap. Otherwise, I am aware of no one "acting" as president for GW--certainly not four guys. Anyways, people love "neat" stories in history, but sometimes they are just a bit "too neat." For example "was Hitler Jewish" is a question that bats about occassionally. Who was probably the first homosexual president . . . no . . . you cannot name Clinton or Bush depending on your politics! Dragging this kicking and screaming back to the topic did I mention the Patriots won, the relevance is level of evidence. People try to equate uncertainty. If we can make a real historical person "uncertain" then it somehow makes an uncertain character like Junior "real." This is not valid reasoning. GW is gone and buried and we have no living witnesses so how do you know he existed and was not a conspiracy set up by Star Fleet Command or, worse, Amway? As other mentioned, you can point to letters written by him. We do not have anything this tangible for Junior. --J.D.

12-27-2003, 03:06 PM	#27
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	Ooops! 'Tis an Urban Legend. Rather ironic, that. --J.D.

12-27-2003, 03:16 PM	#28
offa Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Monroeville, Ohio, USA Posts: 440	wow, that was fun. thanks Dr.X. Moderators, please acceptmy apologies for going off topic.

12-27-2003, 03:17 PM	#29
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	As is the There Were Four Presidents Before the Big Guy. But Gore still claimed he invented the internet. . . . --J.D.

12-28-2003, 03:47 AM	#30
Bob K Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: New Durham, NH USA Posts: 5,933	I recall reading that there were US Presidents under whatever was the equivalent of the US Constitution which enfranchised the Continental Congress, but G. Washington was the first US President under the US Constitution.

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