Freethought & Rationalism Archive

sweetpea7 · 01-07-2009, 04:40 PM

I always wondered about what this verse meant when I was a fundamenaltist Baptist. The preachers I asked didn't have an answer, and I was told by one that most bible commentaries simply skip over it. I was just wondering if anyone here could help me figure it out? Thanks.

Here is Matthew 11:11-15 from NIV:

Quote:

11. I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12. From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing and forceful men lay hold of it. 13. For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. 14. And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come. 15. He who has ears, let him hear.

The Dagda · 01-07-2009, 05:07 PM

That's uncanny I put up a thread about a controversial scholar claiming this part of the text was elided by the Catholic Church. And the bit about him being the least in heaven was not in the original Greek text.

It does seem to give John far more credit than he is due even if we accept it is authentic, but they do put in the bit about him being pre-eminent on Earth but least among men in heaven. Jesus of course is of heaven and Earth so he's neatly by passed in that reference.

Essentially it just heralds John as the wisest of prophets among men, much like Elijah was.

sweetpea7 · 01-07-2009, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dagda

Essentially it just heralds John as the wisest of prophets among men, much like Elijah was.

I get that from the surronding verses. I still don't understand what the phrase "forcefully advancing and forceful men take hold of it" means. :huh:

The Dagda · 01-07-2009, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sweetpea7

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dagda

Essentially it just heralds John as the wisest of prophets among men, much like Elijah was.

I get that from the surronding verses. I still don't understand what the phrase "forcefully advancing and forceful men take hold of it" means. :huh:

It means the extent of heaven and it's influence is increasing and forceful men are increasing it, like John.

sweetpea7 · 01-07-2009, 05:30 PM

>

< That makes sense. See...you know more than two of my former pastors and the bible commentaries they used!

The Dagda · 01-07-2009, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sweetpea7

>

< That makes sense. See...you know more than two of my former pastors and the bible commentaries they used!

I doubt it.

hehe. It just so happens I know an uncanny amount about that particular bit of text. It's kind of like knowing nothing about chemistry except the atomic number of oxygen and it coming up in a quiz.

Elijah · 01-07-2009, 05:36 PM

Elijah killed his enemies. It was cool to kill what you saw as the enemies of god so only the violent holy men had say in the holy. Jesus represented a changing of the guard in holy men, instead of killing your enemies you sacrificed yourself to them.

sweetpea7 · 01-07-2009, 05:46 PM

Elijah: Is that your take from the NT as a whole or are you saying that is specifically what Matthew 11:12 means? Also, won't Jesus be killing his enemies for good in hell as well as in the battle of Armageddon?

Elijah · 01-07-2009, 06:00 PM

Just 11:12. You may be taking Revelations too literally. I don't know what your understanding of the end times is; if it's supernatural or rational. If Jesus is resurrected somehow then I think he would represent a new day and just like his sacrifice represented a change his resurrection would to. Now if he is going to go around kicking ass or try to set a good peaceful example would depend on what was necessary.

sweetpea7 · 01-07-2009, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elijah

Just 11:12.

Ok.

Quote:

You may be taking Revelations too literally. I don't know what your understanding of the end times is; if it's supernatural or rational....

I was just thinking back to the way I was always taught to believe as a fundamentalist. Today, I take Revelations as a story written in a kind of coded language. I think that very little of the Bible is rational. As a side note, don't the majority of Christians believe that Jesus will destroy his enemies in hell and at the battle of Armageddon?

Quote:

Now if he is going to go around kicking ass or try to set a good peaceful example would depend on what was necessary.

Could you expound upon this a bit? What do you mean by necessary?

01-07-2009, 05:30 PM	#5
sweetpea7 Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Dayton, Ohio Posts: 1,407	>< That makes sense. See...you know more than two of my former pastors and the bible commentaries they used!

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01-07-2009, 05:07 PM	#2
The Dagda Banned Join Date: May 2008 Location: England, Portsmouth Posts: 5,108	That's uncanny I put up a thread about a controversial scholar claiming this part of the text was elided by the Catholic Church. And the bit about him being the least in heaven was not in the original Greek text. It does seem to give John far more credit than he is due even if we accept it is authentic, but they do put in the bit about him being pre-eminent on Earth but least among men in heaven. Jesus of course is of heaven and Earth so he's neatly by passed in that reference. Essentially it just heralds John as the wisest of prophets among men, much like Elijah was.

01-07-2009, 05:36 PM	#7
Elijah Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: MidWest Posts: 1,894	Elijah killed his enemies. It was cool to kill what you saw as the enemies of god so only the violent holy men had say in the holy. Jesus represented a changing of the guard in holy men, instead of killing your enemies you sacrificed yourself to them.

01-07-2009, 05:46 PM	#8
sweetpea7 Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Dayton, Ohio Posts: 1,407	Elijah: Is that your take from the NT as a whole or are you saying that is specifically what Matthew 11:12 means? Also, won't Jesus be killing his enemies for good in hell as well as in the battle of Armageddon?

01-07-2009, 06:00 PM	#9
Elijah Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: MidWest Posts: 1,894	Just 11:12. You may be taking Revelations too literally. I don't know what your understanding of the end times is; if it's supernatural or rational. If Jesus is resurrected somehow then I think he would represent a new day and just like his sacrifice represented a change his resurrection would to. Now if he is going to go around kicking ass or try to set a good peaceful example would depend on what was necessary.

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