Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Sheshbazzar · 02-14-2008, 06:04 PM

Thanks Mountainman, for posting this link to Constantine's "Dear Arius" nasty letter.

Your side notes were particularly helpful in navigating through all of that dense, convoluted and bombastic prose, I admit that in the past I have paid very little attention to such kinds of writings, despising all latter "christian" writings as being about par with used toilet paper.

I can clearly see now that I had been quite unaware of how devious and effective the Imperial power was at remodeling the nascent Jewish messianic hopes into a tool of control, oppression, and of a fanatical and tyrannical domination.
I found these statements to be quite enlightening as to the character and methods of Constantine;

Quote:

Originally Posted by Constantine

(38.) Do you understand that I, the man of God, already know all things?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Constantine

(40)....
In vain will be all your artifice,
for straightway the truth
will circumvent you,
straightway the rain of divine power
-so to speak-
will quench your flames.

Here, the claim of "divine power" is usurped by Constantine and his murderous henchmen, "God's" self-appointed thugs, thieves, and murders.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Constantine

(41.) And, of course, the functions
of the public services will overtake
your associates and likeminded persons

plain old governmental unjust control and terror tactics,
nothing "divine" about it. Hitler, Mussolini, and Stalin, had their prototype here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Constantine

(42) Come to me, come, I say,
to a man of God;
believe that by my interrogations
I shall search your heart’s secrets;

Yeah, riiiight, in other words; "After I have "interrogated" you long enough,
I'll have your heart ripped out so I can cut it into small pieces."

And Christians celebrate this vile character for what he pulled off?
:devil:

mountainman · 02-14-2008, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

It was a good line at the time!

Go with the flow. You can never step into the same River twice! Leave all emotional baggage on the verandah. Follow the evidence wherever it may lead.

mountainman · 02-14-2008, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Thanks Mountainman, for posting this link to Constantine's "Dear Arius" nasty letter.

Your side notes were particularly helpful in navigating through all of that dense, convoluted and bombastic prose, I admit that in the past I have paid very little attention to such kinds of writings, despising all latter "christian" writings as being about par with used toilet paper.

Thanks. I am glad that someone has at least supported the
notion that when we have a batch of literature generated
under the political environment of a mad military supremacist
then we should not take this literature at face value.

The bible was (first) published by a nasty nasty despot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Constantine

(42) Come to me, come, I say,
to a man of God;
believe that by my interrogations
I shall search your heart’s secrets;

Yeah, riiiight, in other words; "After I have "interrogated" you long enough,
I'll have your heart ripped out so I can cut it into small pieces."

And Christians celebrate this vile character for what he pulled off?
:devil:

Yes they do. They take the literature of Constantine and Eusebius into their hearts --- as simplistic face value. No wonder the world has been screwed around for the last 17 centuries. Noone has as yet asked the simple question "Was the New Testament Constantinian Bullshit"?

Was Jesus the bullshit of Bullneck? And if so, what are the implications of the history of the literary controversies (Arian, Origenist, Nestorian, Porphyry, etc) in the wake of the political boundary event at which Constantine thrust his well researched fiction upon the empire.

There are always two side the historical equation.
So far, only one side of history has been investigated.
The history of the christian victors.

Best wishes,

Pete Brown

Clivedurdle · 02-15-2008, 04:26 AM

I can see a very strong argument that xianity was invented at the time of the Jewish wars as a means to destroy Judaic threats and the threats of revolts from slaves.

The Judaic threat was one of reason - for some reason the Greeks were not seen as threatening - was their rationality more technologically and mathematically focussed whereas Judaism asked awkward questions about justice?

Quote:

<< Matthew 23:13 >>
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

The scribes and pharisees were shutting off the kingdom of heaven by denying heaven's existence and asking for justice here! Proto-atheists!

I see Constantine as a second stage of this anti rationality slave rocket - spreading it to the empire, and now via its missionaries to the whole planet!

Casper · 02-15-2008, 12:07 PM

I can see the reasoning behind promoting it as a "slave religion", but if that were the big push, why bother?

Why would you concoct an elaborate scheme to subvert a small unimprotant group of subjects (Pharisees) whom you were eventually going to slaughter or enslave eventually?

I mean, if political malcontents are getting the slaves worked up, why not just address the root of the problem with the malcontents?

Clivedurdle · 02-15-2008, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Casper

I can see the reasoning behind promoting it as a "slave religion", but if that were the big push, why bother?

Why would you concoct an elaborate scheme to subvert a small unimprotant group of subjects (Pharisees) whom you were eventually going to slaughter or enslave eventually?

I mean, if political malcontents are getting the slaves worked up, why not just address the root of the problem with the malcontents?

They did for about 200 years!

http://www.livius.org/ja-jn/jewish_wars/jwar01.htm

It was Pompey's next job after Spartacus and the Cicilian pirates!

And the Pharisees might have been a small group, but their ideas of rationality justice and freedom were extremely dangerous - a slave religion would have been a sensible move - and don't forget they thought it would also lead to obedient soldiers - it was an unintended consequence that they all became useless priests!

Clivedurdle · 02-15-2008, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Meanwhile, the conflict between the two Jewish princes had escalated. The Pharisees sided with Hyrcanus, the Sadducees with Aristobulus. During the festival of Passover of 63, Aristobulus and the Sadducees were besieged in the Temple of Jerusalem by Hyrcanus and his ally, the Arabian sheik Aretas of Petra. However, Aristobulus managed to sent an envoy to Pompey's representative in Syria, Marcus Aemilius Scaurus. The Jewish leader promised 8,000 kg of silver, an offer that Aemilius could not refuse: he immediately ordered Aretas to leave. When Pompey arrived on the scene, he received an even larger present: Aristobulus sent him a golden vine of no less than 800 kg, which the Roman commander forwarded to the temple of Jupiter in Rome.

Who is it who causes confusion of dating again?:devil1:

http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=193135

Clivedurdle · 02-15-2008, 12:53 PM

Hang on, I have just seen an allusion that Pompey also defiled the Temple!

Sheshbazzar · 02-15-2008, 12:59 PM

It was much more than simply subverting the Pharisees, they would have been but "small change" in the overall scheme of the Imperial power grab as an unlimited and unrestrained political/religious license to pillage, plunder, and murder any and all opposition.
Constantine, by his claims, and by title of Pontifex Maximus, The above referenced "I, the man of God, already know all things" became the ultimate and final authority, every member of the Senate and Church approving and applauding to his "edicts" under threat of life, family, liberty, and property. (exactly as tyrannical "leaders" always have, and yet still do operate.)
His eye was on the prize, the unlimited power to freely plunder all of the "pagan" Temples of the Empire of the accumulated wealth of generations, to feed his political/religious machine. Controlling the interpretation of "theology" was only a means to the end, and through this religious indoctrination and reeducation program, the thoughts and desires of the general population, and their slaves could be redirected into such paths as served the "best interests" of the Imperial ambitions.
Small wonder that there is so very little in the way of any outspoken opposition documents surviving.

Clivedurdle · 02-15-2008, 01:02 PM

The twelth Legion

Quote:

This horrendous experience, however, was only the begining of the 12th legion's misfortunes.

In September of 66, the inhabitants of Jerusalem revolted, driving out the corrupt Procurator, Gessius Florus. Hoping to quickly crush the uprising, Cestius Gallus, the newly appointed governor of Syria, assembled a force of some 30,000 men. The heart of the army was Legio XII Fulminata, together with vexillations from Legio IV Scythica and Legio VI Ferrata, plus auxiliaries and allies. They marched from Ptolemaios about mid-October, taking several cities and towns en route: notably Chabulon, which they burned, and Joppa, where over 8,400 citizens were massacred. While the rest of the army waited in Caesarea, the twelfth legion (commanded by Caesennius Gallus, the governor's son) formed an expedition together with Herod Antipas' Judaean auxilaries, which advanced to Sepphoris, receiving a friendly welcome there. The rebels who had quitted the city fled to the mountains. The Twelfth hunted them down, killing over two thousand.

After Legio XII rejoined the army at Caesarea, the Romans continued on towards Jerusalem. After crushing a Jewish force at Aphek (Majdal Yaba), the army passed through Beth-Horon Pass. They encamped at Gabaon (the Biblical Gibeon) on Nov. 7.

While Cestius Gallus gathered supplies from the surrounding countryside, and Herod Agrippa tried to open communications with friendly factions within Jerusalem, the rebels took the initiative. On Nov. 10th, they staged a surprise attack on the insufficiently fortified camp, killing more than 500 Romans with negligible loss to themselves. Gallus immediately withdrew his army to Beth-Horon, hesitating there another three days.

By the 14th, he had learned that Agrippa's agents had been murdered, and the rebels had slaughtered the leaders of the Pro-Roman factions. Finally stung into action, Cestius Gallus ordered an attack. The Romans marched to Jerusalem, setting up camp just outside the Upper City, in the vicinity of the Royal Palace. For five days, they assaulted the walls. By the end of that time they had set fire to the Temple Gate, and deeply undermined a section of wall, which was on the verge of collapsing. Then, on Nov. 23, Cestius ordered a withdrawl, according to Josephus, "without any reason in the world" (he credited the will of god). But more likely it was the Romans' inability to force a decisive engagement, the insufficiency of their siege train, and, possibly, Cestius' uncertainty as to the reliability of his troops.

The withdrawl was a fiasco. Instead of following standard marching order, for some reason Cestius Gallus had the main body of troops take the lead, leaving the baggage and supply train to bring up the rear, with a very inadequate rear guard. Already heartened by seeing the Romans in retreat, the Jews swarmed out of Jerusalem and fell upon the rear and flanks of the long column. The guards were quickly overwhelmed, and all the baggage and the siege train (including the legions' artillery) was captured.

The now thoroughly demoralized Romans Fled into the Pass of Beth-Horon. There, where Judah Maccabee had crushed the Syrian invaders almost 200 years before, Legio XII Fulminata, and the rest of the Roman army, were trapped and cut to pieces (Nov.25). Huddled together, defending themselves as best they might, only one chance for escape offered itself. In the dead of night, the great Roman war machine ran away, leaving behind almost all their gear so as not to slow them down. They also left behind four hundred brave men, who kept campfires burning, and feigned activity to hide their comrades' flight. In the morning, when the enemy discovered the deception, they attacked, making short work of the covering force. But, by that time, the remnants of Cestius Gallus' army was well away on the road to Antipatris and safety. Within days, Cestius was dead -- of shame or suicide, the sources differ.

Almost six thousand Romans and allies perished in the horror of Beth-Horon. And, in the course of the running fight Legio XII Fulminata not only abandonned all its baggage, its artillery, and what was left of its good name to the enemy, but suffered the consumate dishonor any legion could endure. The Aquilia -- the Eagle -- the symbolic heart and soul of the twelfth legion, had been paraded back to Jerusalem by the triumphant enemy.

The loss of an Eagle to the enemy was the ultimate disgrace that could befall a legion. The "standard practice" (insofar as there was one) appears to have been the disbanding of the legion; the officers cashiered and the men absorbed into other formations with loss of their privileges and seniority. That is what happened to the four legions that had lost their aquiliae in the Civilis Revolt in 70. But, in the face of the rapidly spreading Jewish Revolt, it must have been judged inadvisable to destroy even the battered remnant of a twice-dishonored legion. So, the 12th survived.

In 70, the Legio XII Fulminata had the chance for revenge when it joined the army brought by Titus for the siege of Jerusalem.

http://members.tripod.com/~HAuburn/LegXII.html

The Romans had more than enough reason to put their best brains onto the task of destroying Judaism.

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02-15-2008, 12:07 PM	#45
Casper Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Texas Posts: 430	I can see the reasoning behind promoting it as a "slave religion", but if that were the big push, why bother? Why would you concoct an elaborate scheme to subvert a small unimprotant group of subjects (Pharisees) whom you were eventually going to slaughter or enslave eventually? I mean, if political malcontents are getting the slaves worked up, why not just address the root of the problem with the malcontents?

02-15-2008, 12:53 PM	#48
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Hang on, I have just seen an allusion that Pompey also defiled the Temple!

02-15-2008, 12:59 PM	#49
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	It was much more than simply subverting the Pharisees, they would have been but "small change" in the overall scheme of the Imperial power grab as an unlimited and unrestrained political/religious license to pillage, plunder, and murder any and all opposition. Constantine, by his claims, and by title of Pontifex Maximus, The above referenced "I, the man of God, already know all things" became the ultimate and final authority, every member of the Senate and Church approving and applauding to his "edicts" under threat of life, family, liberty, and property. (exactly as tyrannical "leaders" always have, and yet still do operate.) His eye was on the prize, the unlimited power to freely plunder all of the "pagan" Temples of the Empire of the accumulated wealth of generations, to feed his political/religious machine. Controlling the interpretation of "theology" was only a means to the end, and through this religious indoctrination and reeducation program, the thoughts and desires of the general population, and their slaves could be redirected into such paths as served the "best interests" of the Imperial ambitions. Small wonder that there is so very little in the way of any outspoken opposition documents surviving.

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