Freethought & Rationalism Archive

lpetrich · 08-16-2005, 11:53 AM

As I was tracking down "Maria" vs "Mariam" in various Greek New Testament editions, I noted that Jesus Christ's mother was not asked if she wanted to have Jesus Christ. This would mean that she was reproductively raped even if not sexually raped. But we are told that she never protested that (Luke 1, Matthew 1). :huh:

Toto · 08-16-2005, 12:00 PM

I think it was an offer she couldn't refuse.

I've moved a similar topic to Elsewhere recently. Is there something substantive to say on this issue?

Sarpedon · 08-16-2005, 01:58 PM

I recall the conversation as follows: (I'm not sure which gospel)

Angel: rejoice! you are favored above all women, you will bear a child you will name him jesus, and he will be the Christ, the annointed one!

Mary: How? I'm a virgin?

Angel: The spirit of THE LORD will come upon you!

Mary: God's will be done.

We could take her last statement as being consent, can't we? Isn't there enough wrong with christianity that we don't have to invent fictitious crimes in fictitious books against fictitious people?

lpetrich · 08-16-2005, 07:32 PM

Sarpedon, it seems to me like being resigned -- "Do whatever you want to" -- rather than being willing in the fashion of "Yes, I want to have that kid".

As to the topic, it seemed very odd to me that she was not asked if she wanted to have that child.

patchy · 08-16-2005, 07:47 PM

Stuff like this does "our side" no good.

It's no less cartoonish a caricature than Jack Chick's depictions of the science teacher as a Darwinian "ape man."

This thread's title, and premise, is more useful as ammunition posted on Christian sites as an example of "how the other side thinks" than it is as a true conversation starter here...

Is this really what we want our arguments watered down to? Sheesh.

tommyc · 08-16-2005, 08:14 PM

Actually I think lpetrich has a point. I know it's not exactly original, but it is valid. Whether you consider the story fictional or not, a women was pretty much forced (or at least had no choice in the matter) as to whether she would have to have a child. It's not exactly rape though, and by using that term it tends to make the argument very loaded.

Then again, with all the nasty shit God did in the old testament a bit of rape seems pretty mild in comparison. :huh:

(I feel like I'm on the slippery slope to ~Elsewhere~)

sodium · 08-16-2005, 09:01 PM

Oops! I just edited my post instead of replying. What a noob. Anyway, my original post follows (more or less).

Quote:

Luke 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
...
1:38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

Looks like consent.

lpetrich · 08-16-2005, 09:27 PM

Although "rape" may not be the right word, what might be? "Forced impregnation"?

And here are some other translations of what sodium had quoted (Luke 1:31-32,38):

Quote:

But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God. You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus." ... "I am the Lord's servant," Mary answered. "May it be to me as you have said." Then the angel left her. (NIV)

The angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary; for you have found favor with God. "And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus." ... And Mary said, "Behold, the bondslave of the Lord; may it be done to me according to your word." And the angel departed from her. (NASB)

sodium · 08-16-2005, 09:53 PM

Here's my translation, Luke 31-32,38

Quote:

The angel said, "Don't worry Mary, God likes you. Look, you're going to be pregnant. It's going to be a boy, and you'll name him Jesus."

And Mary replied, "Look at me! I'm God's slave girl! I hope that thing gets done to me like you just said."

OK, maybe it's not as poetic as King James.

Toto · 08-17-2005, 12:24 AM

Back in ancient times, women had little say over if or when they got pregnant in any case. If Mary hadn't been impregnated by the Holy Spirit, she would have just proceded with her arranged marriage to Joseph, and gotten pregnant the normal way. No one would have asked her consent to either the marriage or the pregnancy, but no one would call it rape. (Except maybe Andrea Dworkin.)

08-16-2005, 11:53 AM	#1
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	Did God Rape Mary? As I was tracking down "Maria" vs "Mariam" in various Greek New Testament editions, I noted that Jesus Christ's mother was not asked if she wanted to have Jesus Christ. This would mean that she was reproductively raped even if not sexually raped. But we are told that she never protested that (Luke 1, Matthew 1). :huh:

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08-16-2005, 12:00 PM	#2
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	I think it was an offer she couldn't refuse. I've moved a similar topic to Elsewhere recently. Is there something substantive to say on this issue?

08-16-2005, 01:58 PM	#3
Sarpedon Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Minnesota, the least controversial state in the le Posts: 8,446	I recall the conversation as follows: (I'm not sure which gospel) Angel: rejoice! you are favored above all women, you will bear a child you will name him jesus, and he will be the Christ, the annointed one! Mary: How? I'm a virgin? Angel: The spirit of THE LORD will come upon you! Mary: God's will be done. We could take her last statement as being consent, can't we? Isn't there enough wrong with christianity that we don't have to invent fictitious crimes in fictitious books against fictitious people?

08-16-2005, 07:32 PM	#4
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	Sarpedon, it seems to me like being resigned -- "Do whatever you want to" -- rather than being willing in the fashion of "Yes, I want to have that kid". As to the topic, it seemed very odd to me that she was not asked if she wanted to have that child.

08-16-2005, 07:47 PM	#5
patchy Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: America Posts: 1,377	Stuff like this does "our side" no good. It's no less cartoonish a caricature than Jack Chick's depictions of the science teacher as a Darwinian "ape man." This thread's title, and premise, is more useful as ammunition posted on Christian sites as an example of "how the other side thinks" than it is as a true conversation starter here... Is this really what we want our arguments watered down to? Sheesh.

08-16-2005, 08:14 PM	#6
tommyc Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: London, England Posts: 1,206	Actually I think lpetrich has a point. I know it's not exactly original, but it is valid. Whether you consider the story fictional or not, a women was pretty much forced (or at least had no choice in the matter) as to whether she would have to have a child. It's not exactly rape though, and by using that term it tends to make the argument very loaded. Then again, with all the nasty shit God did in the old testament a bit of rape seems pretty mild in comparison. :huh: (I feel like I'm on the slippery slope to ~Elsewhere~)

08-17-2005, 12:24 AM	#10
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Back in ancient times, women had little say over if or when they got pregnant in any case. If Mary hadn't been impregnated by the Holy Spirit, she would have just proceded with her arranged marriage to Joseph, and gotten pregnant the normal way. No one would have asked her consent to either the marriage or the pregnancy, but no one would call it rape. (Except maybe Andrea Dworkin.)

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