Freethought & Rationalism Archive

lpetrich · 06-01-2005, 09:05 PM

Most sexually transmitted diseases, however, were recognized only over the last century or so.

Furthermore, social control is another possible motivation -- allow people sex only if they conform.

And men have often gone to prostitutes without feeling that they are doing anything wrong -- consider how it's always the prostitute who gets blamed.

Furthermore, many Islamic societies have considered homosexuality tolerable, despite the uncompromising anti-homosexual stance of many Islamic jurists. The poet Abu Nuwas had celebrated sex with boys as preferable to sex with women; this may have been a common sentiment. Back in the 19th century, many European gay men found it easier to have their sexual preference in Islamic countries than in their native lands, and Napoleon's armies caused severe culture shock in Cairo with their bringing along lots of female prostitutes (male ones were OK).

So there were plenty of opportunities for sexually transmitted diseases to spread in centuries past.

premjan · 06-01-2005, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lenrek

Are you sure? Got any statistic/report to back this up?

Not sure if you are being facetious, but Dubai is in the UAE (i.e. I live there) so all I have to do is walk around the streets. Lots of prostitutes, people openly pick them up in their cars, and many of them are from (non-conservative) Islamic backgrounds as well (mostly Lebanese).

IsItJustMe · 06-01-2005, 10:11 PM

saeedalyousuf,

I think this argument may have wrapped itself up. That is: In the Qu'ran there are certain rules which protect to some extent against AIDS. You assert that this is proof that Allah knew of AIDS at the time of writing the Qu'ran. However, other posters have put forth several other plausible reasons for the existence of these rules at that time which do not require anyone to have known of the future existence of AIDS. You have given us nothing (not I think due to any limitation of your own but rather because there IS nothing) to show that your reason is the correct reason. Therefore, this is not a workable proof of the existence of God or the prophecy of Mouhamed. It does not DISPROVE these things, but it does not prove them. I hope you will have the grace to admit this.

If you are willing, I would like to continue to discuss the problem of evil from an Islamic perspective in a separate thread. I have an interest in Islam and a great deal of respect for Mouhamed and the Qu'ran, but I am myself an atheist and a materialist. Please let me know if you would like to continue this discussion.

lenrek · 06-01-2005, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by premjan

Not sure if you are being facetious...

saeedalyousuf · 06-02-2005, 05:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lenrek

Thanks for the link, I think the direct link should be this one.

OK, I think this link is a much reliable source of information.

So, Saeed, are you going to response to this? Or, are you going ignore this again?

You need to read the report well before you jump to conclusions. The main region mentioned Southern Sudan is mostly a non Muslim war torn region. In Libya foreign doctors are reported to have been nvolved in spreading the disease in the hospitals. Others are mostly are tourist countries where HIV can be attributed to tourism or non Islamic practices and therefore it proves the Islamic values rather than contradict them.

Saeed

JPD · 06-02-2005, 05:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newtype_alpha

Gonorrhea for one, and undoubtedly a small arsenal of other diseases such as Human Papilloma Virus, various types of parasites, and some ailments that were probably too lethal to survive for any period of time. Whatever else Muhammed might have been, has an extremely shrewd social engineer.

Saeed

Are you going to respond to this or run off as soon as you see information?

A couple of things at this point - muslims are not immune from transmitting and/or recieving STDs, and one does not need to be a muslim to live a life whereby one does not transmit and/or receive STDs (with the exception of HIV in the case of blood transfusions, though one would have to be very unlucky indeed to become infected by that route now).

saeedalyousuf · 06-02-2005, 05:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple Six

Aren't we are supposed to be talking about the all knowing, all powerful allah here? If he can't pass down clear instructions which can be incorporated into a manual of how to make a vaccine then he isn't much of a god is he?

S1:
Why are you picking only one of the reasons while ignoring the others?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple Six

Strange how all his great prophecies and scientific knowledge that you claim from him are in the form of obscure poems passed on to a paedophile.

S2:
The verses containing the "prophecies and scientific knowledge" are available for all to investigate and verify and certain investigators and scientists have already published their works.

S3:
Who was " a paedophile" and what is your evidence for that?

Saeed

_Naturalist_ · 06-02-2005, 05:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saeedalyousuf

I gave the evidence for that i.e., he did prescribe the measures for the protection from AIDS in the Qur'an that was revealed fourteen centuries back and as a consequence the Muslims enjoy the protection today.

Did no such thing. Allah doesn't exist. AIDS was not known that long ago.

lenrek · 06-02-2005, 05:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saeedalyousuf

You need to read the report well before you jump to conclusions. The main region mentioned Southern Sudan is mostly a non Muslim war torn region. In Libya foreign doctors are reported to have been nvolved in spreading the disease in the hospitals. Others are mostly are tourist countries where HIV can be attributed to tourism or non Islamic practices and therefore it proves the Islamic values rather than contradict them.

Saeed

Which report are you talking about?

From the link:

Quote:

...Morocco, where an estimated 15 000 people were living with HIV at the end of 2003, could be a case in point. Official statistics indicate HIV is being transmitted mainly during heterosexual intercourse, with sex between men and injecting drug use apparently lesser factors. However, recent HIV sentinel surveillance has not monitored HIV among injecting drug users nor among men who have sex with men...

Further down the same link:

Quote:

...Those studies that have been conducted, however, show significant scope for HIV transmission among and beyond men who have sex with men. Although recent research among a sample of men who have sex with men in Cairo, Egypt, found low HIV prevalence (just over 1%), risk behaviour was commonplace. Many of the men, particularly those younger than 25, reported having multiple partners but just 19% of the men overall said they consistently used condoms. Some of them had never heard of a condom. In light of the low rates of condom use and the fact that almost three quarters of the older men (above 25 years) also had female sex partners, there is a significant potential for wider HIV transmission (El-Rahman, 2004)...

EDIT: Are you saying these people are non-Muslim?

saeedalyousuf · 06-02-2005, 06:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lenrek

Which report are you talking about?

From the link:

Further down the same link:

EDIT: Are you saying these people are non-Muslim?

What is in your reply to contradict my answer?

"You need to read the report well before you jump to conclusions. The main region mentioned Southern Sudan is mostly a non Muslim war torn region. In Libya foreign doctors are reported to have been nvolved in spreading the disease in the hospitals. Others are mostly are tourist countries where HIV can be attributed to tourism or non Islamic practices and therefore it proves the Islamic values rather than contradict them"

Saeed

View Poll Results: Did any else other than Allah know about AIDS fourteen centuries back?
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06-01-2005, 09:05 PM	#41
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	Most sexually transmitted diseases, however, were recognized only over the last century or so. Furthermore, social control is another possible motivation -- allow people sex only if they conform. And men have often gone to prostitutes without feeling that they are doing anything wrong -- consider how it's always the prostitute who gets blamed. Furthermore, many Islamic societies have considered homosexuality tolerable, despite the uncompromising anti-homosexual stance of many Islamic jurists. The poet Abu Nuwas had celebrated sex with boys as preferable to sex with women; this may have been a common sentiment. Back in the 19th century, many European gay men found it easier to have their sexual preference in Islamic countries than in their native lands, and Napoleon's armies caused severe culture shock in Cairo with their bringing along lots of female prostitutes (male ones were OK). So there were plenty of opportunities for sexually transmitted diseases to spread in centuries past.

06-01-2005, 10:11 PM	#43
IsItJustMe Veteran Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Next smoke-filled cellar over from Preno. Posts: 6,562	saeedalyousuf, I think this argument may have wrapped itself up. That is: In the Qu'ran there are certain rules which protect to some extent against AIDS. You assert that this is proof that Allah knew of AIDS at the time of writing the Qu'ran. However, other posters have put forth several other plausible reasons for the existence of these rules at that time which do not require anyone to have known of the future existence of AIDS. You have given us nothing (not I think due to any limitation of your own but rather because there IS nothing) to show that your reason is the correct reason. Therefore, this is not a workable proof of the existence of God or the prophecy of Mouhamed. It does not DISPROVE these things, but it does not prove them. I hope you will have the grace to admit this. If you are willing, I would like to continue to discuss the problem of evil from an Islamic perspective in a separate thread. I have an interest in Islam and a great deal of respect for Mouhamed and the Qu'ran, but I am myself an atheist and a materialist. Please let me know if you would like to continue this discussion.

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