Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 10-16-2011, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

According to the Gospels the 12 apostles were the core of a wider group that sometimes travelled with Jesus. According to Luke 8:1-3 this wider group included women.

Andrew Criddle

According to gLuke Jesus was a Holy Thing of a Ghost (Luke 1.26-35) so I really don't understand why you are using the Gospels for historical purposes.

The Gospels and gLuke need EXTERNAL corroboration for EVERY single event and EVERY single character.

It is simply absurd to PRESUME that gLuke has provided reliable details about Jesus and the 12 disciples.

Please, FIRST locate external non-apologetic sources for Jesus and the 12 disciples.

Sorry, there is NONE.

Doug Shaver · 10-16-2011, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

Was Jesus really an itinerant preacher with a fixed number of 12 disciples wandering around with him?

As I define the historical Jesus, if there was one, then he had some disciples who inaugurated some early version of Christianity sometime after Pilate executed him. How many there actually were, though, would be anybody's guess.

Solo · 10-16-2011, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Even in modern Superhero stories, the superhero has to have a way of earning money - Superman - reporter, Batman - inheritance, Spiderman - photographer for a while etc.

I wonder how people would have imagined the economic arrangements.

Ask a train-hopping hobo or Wall Street occupier to explain to you the economics of Matt 6:26-34:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mt 6:26-34 (RSV)

Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? And which of you by being anxious can add one cubit to his span of life? And why are you anxious about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they neither toil nor spin; yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you, O men of little faith? Therefore do not be anxious, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?'
For the Gentiles seek all these things; and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all.

But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things shall be yours as well.

"Therefore do not be anxious about tomorrow, for tomorrow will be anxious for itself. Let the day's own trouble be sufficient for the day. "

Best,
Jiri

Steven Carr · 10-16-2011, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

Was Jesus really an itinerant preacher with a fixed number of 12 disciples wandering around with him?

What did they do all day?

Has there ever been an itinerant preacher who had a fixed number of disciples accompanying him?

According to the Gospels the 12 apostles were the core of a wider group that sometimes travelled with Jesus. According to Luke 8:1-3 this wider group included women.

Andrew Criddle

What is a 'core' of a wider group? What did they do that made them a core? What was their job description?

And this core only 'sometimes travelled with Jesus'?

How many people were in this travelling roadshow?

Steven Carr · 10-16-2011, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

Was Jesus really an itinerant preacher with a fixed number of 12 disciples wandering around with him?

As I define the historical Jesus, if there was one, then he had some disciples who inaugurated some early version of Christianity sometime after Pilate executed him. How many there actually were, though, would be anybody's guess.

So the evangelists could lie even about how many disciples Jesus had?

aa5874 · 10-16-2011, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

Was Jesus really an itinerant preacher with a fixed number of 12 disciples wandering around with him?

As I define the historical Jesus, if there was one, then he had some disciples who inaugurated some early version of Christianity sometime after Pilate executed him. How many there actually were, though, would be anybody's guess.

Your post is all speculation. You are merely assuming when we are attempting to locate historical sources of antiquity.

We have a character called Jesus Son of Ananus in 'Wars of the Jews' 6.5 who was a LONER and apocalyptic who was NOT claimed to have had any disciples and predicted some kind of calamity in Jerusalem.

Without any credible non-apologetic source for Jesus and the disciples of the NT then it is virtually impossible to make any claims about them.

In the NT, Jesus was the Child of a Ghost so I don't know why PEOPLE are looking for an historical Jesus in the NT.

andrewcriddle · 10-16-2011, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

According to the Gospels the 12 apostles were the core of a wider group that sometimes travelled with Jesus. According to Luke 8:1-3 this wider group included women.

Andrew Criddle

What is a 'core' of a wider group? What did they do that made them a core? What was their job description?

And this core only 'sometimes travelled with Jesus'?

How many people were in this travelling roadshow?

According to the Gospels the twelve were given special authority and given a special mission. (See Matthew 10). The group following Jesus was at some times large but as Jesus' message became more controversial the number of followers sharply reduced. (John 6:66)

Andrew Criddle

aa5874 · 10-16-2011, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

According to the Gospels the twelve were given special authority and given a special mission. (See Matthew 10). The group following Jesus was at some times large but as Jesus' message became more controversial the number of followers sharply reduced. (John 6:66)

Andrew Criddle

People who read the Gospels ALREADY know what they say about Jesus, the Child of the Ghost, God and Creator, and his 12 disciples.

Right now we are LOOKING for EXTERNAL corroborative historical sources for Jesus and his 12 disciples.

People here KNOW the Gospels and are QUESTIONING their veracity.

It is quite remarkable that the very same Gospels that claim Jesus had 12 disciples also claim he was the Child of a Ghost.

Only some CREDIBLE EXTERNAL Non-apologetic EVIDENCE can resolve the matter.

I am so sorry, there is NONE.

Steven Carr · 10-17-2011, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

According to the Gospels the 12 apostles were the core of a wider group that sometimes travelled with Jesus. According to Luke 8:1-3 this wider group included women.

Andrew Criddle

What is a 'core' of a wider group? What did they do that made them a core? What was their job description?

And this core only 'sometimes travelled with Jesus'?

How many people were in this travelling roadshow?

According to the Gospels the twelve were given special authority and given a special mission. (See Matthew 10). The group following Jesus was at some times large but as Jesus' message became more controversial the number of followers sharply reduced. (John 6:66)

Andrew Criddle

SO not even an attempt to find another itinerant preacher who had a fixed number of disciples travelling with him....

'Special authority'? To do what exactly? Raise the dead, as in Matthew 10?

Was raising the dead their 'special mission'?

What was their real job, ignoring claims in Matthew 10 that they were given a special mission to raise the dead?

This whole 12 disciples thing is absurd.

Doug Shaver · 10-17-2011, 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

So the evangelists could lie even about how many disciples Jesus had?

I suppose they could have lied, but I know of no reason to assume they did. I don't believe that every untrue statement is a lie. I believe that it's nearly always just a mistake.

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