Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Kosh · 02-15-2007, 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gnosis92

3- seeks to delegitmize Jews claim to Israel and Jerusalem (he denies the Palestinians to any portion of the city)

BTW, I don't think this makes any sense at all. Finkelstein shows that the Jews *originated* in the area, growing out of a sub-culture of Canannites (sp?). I think this makes their claim to it as a homeland MORE legit than the "God gave it to us" B.S.

Malachi151 · 02-15-2007, 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Sadly this doesn't seem to be correct. The so-called minimalists get hell from Israel. I remember when an Israeli scholar, Zeev Herzog, made mildly minimalist comments in a national Israeli newspaper, our good mate Hershel Shanks spewed bile at minimalism. It's true that Bill Dever cannot but attack the "minimalists", but that is because he wouldn't be all that distant from them, and it's a good survival ploy when you run with the more conservative elements to say "them" (and imply "not me"), but "minimalism" is alive in Israel and hated there as well.

spin

Maybe I just get that impression here in the States and because I am around fundies more than Zionists. My finance is Jewish and I have a lot of Jewish friends, but they are almost all atheists not in favor of Zionism. In fact, one of my Jewish friends is my main source for Old Testament information as he would be considered a so-called "minimalist". I'm more of an NT person and he's more of an OT person, for obvious reasons I guess, but I've met several Jews who are quite critical in a scholarly way of Jewish history, but then again I'm hanging out in humanist and atheist groups...

gstafleu · 02-15-2007, 10:31 AM

Call me ignorant, but what is a "Jewish atheist"? It sounds like a "Christian atheist" to me. I'm not trying to be difficult, but I always thought of "Jewishness" as a religious issue, something you convert to (or not). I suppose there is the element of descending from an original bunch of people, but that was 2000 years ago, so defining that bunch and tracing the lineage could present problems.

Gerard Stafleu

spin · 02-15-2007, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstafleu

Call me ignorant, but what is a "Jewish atheist"?

How would you describe a person from a Jewish family who believes there is no god? Think of Trotsky for example.

spin

Sarpedon · 02-15-2007, 10:48 AM

Quote:

My finance is Jewish

Now how's this for a hurtful stereotype. Bit of a freudian slip, Malachi?

Major Billy · 02-15-2007, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstafleu

What is a "Jewish atheist"?

A decendent of the nation of Judea who does not believe in a diety. No different than an "Irish atheist" or a "Scottish atheist".

Sven · 02-15-2007, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstafleu

Call me ignorant, but what is a "Jewish atheist"? It sounds like a "Christian atheist" to me. I'm not trying to be difficult, but I always thought of "Jewishness" as a religious issue, something you convert to (or not). I suppose there is the element of descending from an original bunch of people, but that was 2000 years ago, so defining that bunch and tracing the lineage could present problems.
Gerard Stafleu

Jews: "are members of the Jewish people, an ethnic group originating in the Israelites of the ancient Middle East. The ethnicity is strongly related to the religion of Judaism, and converts to Judaism are included among the Jewish people."

Malachi151 · 02-15-2007, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarpedon

Now how's this for a hurtful stereotype. Bit of a freudian slip, Malachi?

LOL, more like poor use of spell check ;p Yes fiancee. Actually I had it spelled right, btu my spell check marked it read and I just went with it without looking.

Casper · 02-15-2007, 01:42 PM

I'm sorry, I don't buy this "ethnicity" BS.

How would you describe a native of Cameroon, avowed Atheist, who is born to black parents who are also Jews, but whose own parents and grandparents were Muslims?

Is that person a jew? I don't think so. And I tire of the separatist semantics that people try and twist into political justifications. But this seems to be counter to the majority of posters' opinions, so would anyone care to try and convince me otherwise? I am not trying to be obtuse, it just grates on me.

PS the Scottish/Irish analogy doesn't pass the sniff test. Celtic or Anglo? Jute or Saxon? Roman maybe?

Casper · 02-15-2007, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

Actually I had it spelled right, btu my spell check marked it read and I just went with it without looking.

Ever have one of those days? LOL!

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02-15-2007, 10:31 AM	#13
gstafleu Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: London, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,719	Call me ignorant, but what is a "Jewish atheist"? It sounds like a "Christian atheist" to me. I'm not trying to be difficult, but I always thought of "Jewishness" as a religious issue, something you convert to (or not). I suppose there is the element of descending from an original bunch of people, but that was 2000 years ago, so defining that bunch and tracing the lineage could present problems. Gerard Stafleu

02-15-2007, 01:42 PM	#19
Casper Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Texas Posts: 430	I'm sorry, I don't buy this "ethnicity" BS. How would you describe a native of Cameroon, avowed Atheist, who is born to black parents who are also Jews, but whose own parents and grandparents were Muslims? Is that person a jew? I don't think so. And I tire of the separatist semantics that people try and twist into political justifications. But this seems to be counter to the majority of posters' opinions, so would anyone care to try and convince me otherwise? I am not trying to be obtuse, it just grates on me. PS the Scottish/Irish analogy doesn't pass the sniff test. Celtic or Anglo? Jute or Saxon? Roman maybe?

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