Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Johnny Skeptic · 01-08-2008, 08:34 AM

Message to rhutchin: Do you have any idea why it is frequently possible to predict where God will reveal himself to people who become Christians? For instance, a far higher percentage of children who live in the U.S. become Christians than children who live in Syria. You said that some parents are not nice. However, in 3500 B.C., how were parents who lived far away from Palestine supposed to know anything about the God of the Bible? Why wasn't God interested in telling anyone about his specific existence who lived far away from Palestine? If the God of the Bible does not exist, that explains why geography and other secular factors determined how the Gospel message was spread. Why do a much higher percentage of women in the U.S. become Christians than men? Why does God discriminate against men? Why do a much smaller percentage of elderly skeptics become Christians? Why does God discriminate against elderly skeptics?

It is suspicious that the Gospel message was spread exactly the way that it would have been spread if the God of the Bible did not exist, meaning that no one would be able to hear the Gospel message unless another person told them about it, and that the Gospel message would be spread entirely by the secular means of communication, transportation, printing, and translation of a given time period.

If the Bible said that God will send everyone to hell, you would oppose it. Why?, because your emotional self-interest has caused you to accept promises that you believe will ultimately benefit you, and reject promises that you believe will ultimately not benefit you. This proves that you are not as concerned with what the evidence IS as you are with what the evidence PROMISES. That does not make any sense. Obviously, it is not possible to become a fundamentalist Christian without completely disregarding logic, reason, and morality.

Bushman · 01-08-2008, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonofone

As for me not being an agnostic,I don't have the luxury to be one. I started out with God based solely on faith that is as real as the scripture which says that faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. My faith is my evidence and my proof.

Why do you have that faith? Why not faith in any other holy-book or religion? Why should I have this faith?

Johnny Skeptic · 01-08-2008, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonofone

As for me not being an agnostic, I don't have the luxury to be one.

As for me being an angostic, I do not have the luxury of being a Christian, especially since the Bible contains lies, and since God unmercifully plans to send skeptics to hell for eternity without parole, and withholds evidence that some skeptics would accept if they were aware of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonofone

I started out with God based solely on faith that is as real as the scripture which says that faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. My faith is my evidence and my proof.

Better stated, the faith of all theists is their proof. You will not convince anyone of anything at this forum by only using a faith argument. If logic and reason should never be used to evaluate evidence, then all worldviews are equally valid. If faith is all that should be used to choose a worldview, all worldviews are equally valid.

Is it your position that during Old Testament times God revealed his specific existence to everyone in the world?

If the Bible said that God will send everyone to hell, you would reject it. That proves that your emotional perceived self-interest has caused you to reject any evidence that you do not believe will ultimately benefit you.

You need to consider what you write more carefully and stop wasting your time. Are you not able to anticipate that no skeptic will pay any attention to faith only arguments? If you keep repeating yourself, you will continue to get the same replies, and nothing of value will be accomplished?

biblethumping · 01-08-2008, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George Hathaway

Quote:

Originally Posted by biblethumping

The gospel messages are post-Babel and can't be relied upon 100% because they are CONFOUNED. People will just have to have faith that parts of it are correct and others are not.

When you have faith that the Bable (Bible, Torah, Koran -- collectively) contains only nuggets of truth, it raises a question in my mind.

How do you know which parts, if any, are trustworthy?

You have to use your thinking. CONFOUNDATION basically means that the whole bible is confused but that doesn't mean it's false or untrustworthy. There are alot of stories in the bible that, well, tell stories. You are expected to learn from these stories even if they don't make 100% sense or are consistant. This was Gods plan after Babel. Otherwise you'd have this perfect little neat bible that skeptics couldn't tear apart. Actually God tried that with Moses but we failed him, yet again.

I just don't think (johnny) skeptics get it sometimes, you have to have faith in Gods works or the whole thing is comes tumbling down like a house of cards, but with faith YOU can move mountains.

biblethumping · 01-08-2008, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

As for me being an angostic, I do not have the luxury of being a Christian, especially since the Bible contains lies, and since God unmercifully plans to send skeptics to hell for eternity without parole, and withholds evidence that some skeptics would accept if they were aware of it.

Skeptics are always fond of anaolgies between God/man and Parent/child I think i'll offer up one of my own: Yesterday i was reading Roger Penroses' book The Road to Reality (or via: amazon.co.uk), i'm right in the middle of it reading on his negative views of the inflationary model when my smart little 3 year old came up to me and asks what i'm reading and i told him it's just a book. he looked like he wanted to know more (maybe he thought i was reading his favorite doctor sues), but i declined to tell him more. Now if i would have told him I was reading up on the inflationary model which includes some advanced mathmatics and then launch into the the whole explanation of the universe the poor little boy wouldn't understand .00001% of it.

Now surely telling my child about the origins of the universe is an important thing! Right up there with God. Was i wrong or did i lie to him? err not really.. Fact is it's way over his head, he much prefers Yurtle the Turtles explanation. My boy is still going to trust me and have FAITH in me, that is unless i'm a bad parent. That's how it works with God and the Bible, the stories don't have to be 100% correct and "the word of God" just as long as i understand them (and i do) i'll be headed to heaven in the next life.

Robert Byers · 01-09-2008, 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Message to rhutchin: Why do you believe that the Bible is inerrant? Why would God want the Bible to be inerrant?

Do you have any idea why it is frequently possible to predict where God will reveal himself to people who become Christians? For instance, a far higher percentage of children who live in the U.S. become Christians than children who live in Syria. You said that some parents are not nice. However, in 3500 B.C., how were parents who lived far away from Palestine supposed to know anything about the God of the Bible? Why wasn't God interested in telling anyone about his specific existence who lived far away from Palestine? If the God of the Bible does not exist, that explains why geography and other secular factors determined how the Gospel message was spread. Why do a much higher percentage of women in the U.S. become Christians than men? Why does God discriminate against men? Why do a much smaller percentage of elderly skeptics become Christians? Why does God discriminate against elderly skeptics?

It is suspicious that the Gospel message was spread exactly the way that it would have been spread if the God of the Bible did not exist, meaning that no one would be able to hear the Gospel message unless another person told them about it, and that the Gospel message would be spread entirely by the secular means of communication, transportation, printing, and translation of a given time period.

If the Bible said that God will send everyone to hell, you would oppose it. Why?, because your emotional self-interest has caused you to accept promises that you believe will ultimately benefit you, and reject promises that you believe will ultimately not benefit you. This proves that you are not as concerned with what the evidence IS as you are with what the evidence PROMISES. That does not make any sense. Obviously, it is not possible to become a fundamentalist Christian without completely disregarding logic, reason, and morality.

Answered these questions and very well.
God does not pick yanks over syrians but sends his chosen toward yankee parents. The practical with the miracle. Not all will be saved.
likewise women are only souls sent into womens bodies. God just uses certain premises behind the women like weakness or lacl of equal success to show his favour.
Thers a soul and then a body, place, and time.
Rob Byers

angelo · 01-09-2008, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by makerowner

Quote:

Originally Posted by George Hathaway

When you have faith that the Bable (Bible, Torah, Koran -- collectively) contains only nuggets of truth, it raises a question in my mind.

How do you know which parts, if any, are trustworthy?

I'm pretty sure Poe's law is in effect here. From biblethumping's profile:

Location:
Bible Belt
Interests:
thumping the bible
Basic Beliefs:
faith in thumping

Maybe he needs someone to thump him on the scone with a bible.

angelo · 01-09-2008, 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Byers

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Message to rhutchin: Why do you believe that the Bible is inerrant? Why would God want the Bible to be inerrant?

Do you have any idea why it is frequently possible to predict where God will reveal himself to people who become Christians? For instance, a far higher percentage of children who live in the U.S. become Christians than children who live in Syria. You said that some parents are not nice. However, in 3500 B.C., how were parents who lived far away from Palestine supposed to know anything about the God of the Bible? Why wasn't God interested in telling anyone about his specific existence who lived far away from Palestine? If the God of the Bible does not exist, that explains why geography and other secular factors determined how the Gospel message was spread. Why do a much higher percentage of women in the U.S. become Christians than men? Why does God discriminate against men? Why do a much smaller percentage of elderly skeptics become Christians? Why does God discriminate against elderly skeptics?

It is suspicious that the Gospel message was spread exactly the way that it would have been spread if the God of the Bible did not exist, meaning that no one would be able to hear the Gospel message unless another person told them about it, and that the Gospel message would be spread entirely by the secular means of communication, transportation, printing, and translation of a given time period.

If the Bible said that God will send everyone to hell, you would oppose it. Why?, because your emotional self-interest has caused you to accept promises that you believe will ultimately benefit you, and reject promises that you believe will ultimately not benefit you. This proves that you are not as concerned with what the evidence IS as you are with what the evidence PROMISES. That does not make any sense. Obviously, it is not possible to become a fundamentalist Christian without completely disregarding logic, reason, and morality.

Answered these questions and very well.
God does not pick yanks over syrians but sends his chosen toward yankee parents. The practical with the miracle. Not all will be saved.
likewise women are only souls sent into womens bodies. God just uses certain premises behind the women like weakness or lacl of equal success to show his favour.
Thers a soul and then a body, place, and time.
Rob Byers

If not all will be saved, why the heck did he create so many of us. To watch us barbacueing and screaming in agony? What sort of sick person does that.
So all you theists out there, your wasting your time praying to this monster. You see everything has been pre-determined, and only 144.000 will be saved, the rest can go to hell. What a sick joke. Even if such a being realy existed who made these rules or laws, how in the world can anybody grovel at this being's feet. I would tell him/her in no uncertain terms where to go.

George S · 01-09-2008, 01:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by biblethumping

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

As for me being an angostic, I do not have the luxury of being a Christian, especially since the Bible contains lies, and since God unmercifully plans to send skeptics to hell for eternity without parole, and withholds evidence that some skeptics would accept if they were aware of it.

Skeptics are always fond of anaolgies between God/man and Parent/child I think i'll offer up one of my own: Yesterday i was reading Roger Penroses' book The Road to Reality (or via: amazon.co.uk), i'm right in the middle of it reading on his negative views of the inflationary model when my smart little 3 year old came up to me and asks what i'm reading and i told him it's just a book. he looked like he wanted to know more (maybe he thought i was reading his favorite doctor sues), but i declined to tell him more. Now if i would have told him I was reading up on the inflationary model which includes some advanced mathmatics and then launch into the the whole explanation of the universe the poor little boy wouldn't understand .00001% of it.

Now surely telling my child about the origins of the universe is an important thing! Right up there with God. Was i wrong or did i lie to him? err not really.. Fact is it's way over his head, he much prefers Yurtle the Turtles explanation. My boy is still going to trust me and have FAITH in me, that is unless i'm a bad parent. That's how it works with God and the Bible, the stories don't have to be 100% correct and "the word of God" just as long as i understand them (and i do) i'll be headed to heaven in the next life.

I have read Penrose's text. How's your math? I got to tensors (about chapter 16 was it?) before the math got too heavy. Do you do the exercises? What do you think of the idea of the open interval of time?

You know, where any instant of time always has a t/2 that is earlier and yet there is no t₀. This rules out a "beginning" without the need for infinite time backwards.

To have faith in an assertion by a parent is right and proper for a child.

See 1 Cor 13:11.

When one is a child (0-6), the parent makes the rules. This is right and proper.

When one is a youth (7-12), the parent teaches the reasons for the rules.

When one is an adult (13+), the parent is no longer responsible for their offspring.

To believe by faith without reason is a desire to return to the childlike state. Following rules is easy. Thinking about interacting with society in novel situations takes mental effort. Some might say that not using the God-given adult reasoning ability is to deny being made in God's image.

The problem is whether it is nobler in the mind to take the easy route and accept some set of rules as a robot might or to take arms against the sea of troubles and reason.

Do not read Penrose as you read your Bible. Do not cherry-pick. Unlike the Bible, what Penrose says in Road is a non-contradictory whole.

George S · 01-09-2008, 02:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by biblethumping

Now surely telling my child about the origins of the universe is an important thing! Right up there with God. Was i wrong or did i lie to him? err not really.. Fact is it's way over his head, he much prefers Yurtle the Turtles explanation. My boy is still going to trust me and have FAITH in me, that is unless i'm a bad parent. That's how it works with God and the Bible, the stories don't have to be 100% correct and "the word of God" just as long as i understand them (and i do) i'll be headed to heaven in the next life.

Your realize, of course, that faith can be misguided, don't you? Surely the argument that a particular scripture is correct is used by all the major monotheistic religions, right?

How do you know that your particular faith is better than a Muslim's?

If you wish to teach your child a set of rules that make sense even to a child, try these.

1. Respect for all life, but especially human life, is moral.

2. Aggressive (not defensive) first use of force is immoral.

3. Taking unearned value --theft -- is immoral.

4. Threat of use of force for gain of unearned value is immoral.

5. Deceit for gain of unearned value or to cause harm is immoral.

Then teach him to be honorable and loving. There is no need to teach him mythology as if truth.

To simplify for the very young: 1. Be kind to animals as well as people. 2. Don't hit. 3. Don't steal. 4. Don't bully. 5. Don't lie.

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01-08-2008, 08:34 AM	#91
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	Message to rhutchin: Do you have any idea why it is frequently possible to predict where God will reveal himself to people who become Christians? For instance, a far higher percentage of children who live in the U.S. become Christians than children who live in Syria. You said that some parents are not nice. However, in 3500 B.C., how were parents who lived far away from Palestine supposed to know anything about the God of the Bible? Why wasn't God interested in telling anyone about his specific existence who lived far away from Palestine? If the God of the Bible does not exist, that explains why geography and other secular factors determined how the Gospel message was spread. Why do a much higher percentage of women in the U.S. become Christians than men? Why does God discriminate against men? Why do a much smaller percentage of elderly skeptics become Christians? Why does God discriminate against elderly skeptics? It is suspicious that the Gospel message was spread exactly the way that it would have been spread if the God of the Bible did not exist, meaning that no one would be able to hear the Gospel message unless another person told them about it, and that the Gospel message would be spread entirely by the secular means of communication, transportation, printing, and translation of a given time period. If the Bible said that God will send everyone to hell, you would oppose it. Why?, because your emotional self-interest has caused you to accept promises that you believe will ultimately benefit you, and reject promises that you believe will ultimately not benefit you. This proves that you are not as concerned with what the evidence IS as you are with what the evidence PROMISES. That does not make any sense. Obviously, it is not possible to become a fundamentalist Christian without completely disregarding logic, reason, and morality.

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