Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Apikorus · 10-12-2006, 07:21 PM

Another important book, although difficult, is F. M. Cross, Canaanite Myth and Hebrew Epic (or via: amazon.co.uk). Chapters 1-3 contain material on this subject.

Loomis · 10-13-2006, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

It suggests an elohist alteration of the term which was there before it was changed to Elohim.

Can you think of any other place in the OT where “Elohim” (the majestic singular title) is used in such close proximity to “elohim” (the generic plural for ‘gods’)?

This raises an interesting question: Did the ‘elohistic tweaker’ realize how confusing his change was?

Do you wonder if he even read the verse before he made the tweak?

Do you wonder if he even understood what the words meant?

I can imagine some entry-level monk on an assignment from his superiors to go through the text and replace all instances of ‘Baal’ with ‘Elohim.’

This is exactly what we should expect to see.

Do you know what I mean?

Loomis · 10-13-2006, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

While we are dealing with the assembly, we should keep in mind the well-known passage, Deut 32:8-9.

I think 32:7 is a good indicator too.

Quote:

Remember the ancient days;
bear in mind the years of past generations.
Ask your father and he will inform you,
your elders, and they will tell you.

The author is telling the reader to ask grandpa about something.

The author knew that grandpa would recognize older stories about El’s assembly.

Loomis · 10-13-2006, 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Fear

I see.

Loomis · 10-13-2006, 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Ugarit was destroyed a long time before this material was written, so its influence will not be direct. It will become just a part of the undergrowth that writers had available to them. They were written at different times (and maybe even dealing originally with different deities). A more complete reclamation of the more original forms may be beyond our capabilities.

Okay. But on the other hand there are verses like Isaiah 27:1 where the Ugaritic words are copied verbatim.

Quote:

Isaiah 27:1

In that day Yahweh will punish
with his destructive, great, and powerful sword
Leviathan the fleeing serpent,
Leviathan the twisting serpent;
he will slay the dragon Yam.

Compare …

Quote:

KTU 1.5 i 1-4

When you smite Lotan the fleeing serpent, finish off the twisting serpent, the close-coiling one with seven heads, the heavens will wither and go slack like the folds of your tunic.

See what I mean?

They were reading something. It’s not “word of mouth.”

Sheshbazzar · 10-13-2006, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Fear

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loomis

I see.

Not my word, I did not type it; but does it at all occur within my posts?

Why yes! of course it does! I claim it! Yes! It IS my word!
Do you "see" it Loomis?
Do you see the context Loomis?
Does it say to "Fear"?
Or does it say "Fear ye NOT"?
Are you being deliberately devious?
Here, I'll recite it again, to remind you, and all readers of its context;

Thus saith YAHWEH the King of Israel, and his redeemer, YAHWEH of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is NO Elohim.
Isa 44:6

FEAR YE NOT, NEITHER BE AFRAID: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a Eloah beside me? yea, there is NO [El]; I know not any.
Isa 44:8

AM I here telling you to fear?

I AM YAHWEH, and there is NONE else, there is NO Elohim besides me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Isa 45:5

Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: Who hath declared this from ancient time? Who has told it from that time? have not I YAHWEH? and there is NO other Elohim beside me; a just EL and a Saviour; there is NONE beside me.
Isa 45:21

"WHO has declared this from ancient time????
You search The Scriptures to construct your arguments, but
"WHO has told it from that time????

Have not I YAHWEH???? and there is NO other Elohim beside Me; a just El and a Saviour; there is NONE beside Me;

Yet I am YAHWEH your El from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know NO Elohim but me: for there is NO Saviour besides Me.
Hosea 13:4

As it is written; "To Day, after so long of time if you will hear his voice..."
But they refused, and gave way to their contentions, and to their provocations, and sold their souls to their temptations, in gaining their say for a short season.

Clivedurdle · 10-13-2006, 03:55 PM

Quote:

The name 'Elim' was taken from the book of Exodus where the Israelites exhausted and dispirited en route from Egypt's cruel bondage to the freedom of Canaan came to Elim an oasis in the desert where there were twelve wells of water and seventy palm trees. Exodus 15.27.

http://www.elim.org.uk/elim_members/...47&ID=ART00747

As I was baptised, baptised in holy spirit, became a member and married in Elim Eastbourne, I agree elohim is read as the trinity.

What I had forgotten is why a place called gods should have two holy numbers related to it!

Clivedurdle · 10-13-2006, 04:05 PM

And tell this minister to do a little googling before giving sermons!

http://www.ccg.org/english/s/p001.html

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10-12-2006, 07:21 PM	#41
Apikorus Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,396	Another important book, although difficult, is F. M. Cross, Canaanite Myth and Hebrew Epic (or via: amazon.co.uk). Chapters 1-3 contain material on this subject.

10-13-2006, 04:05 PM	#48
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	And tell this minister to do a little googling before giving sermons! http://www.ccg.org/english/s/p001.html

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