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stephan huller · 03-30-2013, 11:49 PM

Marcian was Justinian's cousin and led a Roman assault in the eastern territories. I was looking at the parallel material in Bar Hebraeus and the Latin name appears as 'Marcion.' I wonder if that is significant.

http://books.google.com/books?id=1cK...persia&f=false

Toto · 03-31-2013, 12:24 AM

Is that a transliteration problem?

Per wikipedia, Marcian in Latin is Marcianus, in Greek Μαρκιανός. What is it is Syriac?

stephan huller · 03-31-2013, 12:47 AM

I don't know but Tatian is TTINOS in Theodore bar Koni, Ishodad of Merv etc. The addition of the W is odd in Bar Hebraeus. Maybe is shows that mistakes can happen this way. Might also show that the ION ending is a mistake for the Latin or Greek IAN suffix.

stephan huller · 03-31-2013, 12:55 AM

I found this explanation of the reference to 'Marcion' in The Histories of Rabban Hormizd the Persian and Rabban Bar Idta. First the passage:

Quote:

corrupted by the impurity of Cyril the Egyptian all their multitudes were forsaken by the Divine Care from one end of heaven even unto the other. Then moreover, Marcion, the sorcerer corrupted their minds and polluted their temples in every place and city wherein his doctrine was accepted and he taught them to place in the altars of their inquitous sacrifices and in their houses of assembly for worship, miserable little idols like this one, that, forsooth, they might be [their] saviours and deliverers from those who are worked by devils [Gk cynanthropos = 'dog men'], and also from the devils of the night who are in the form of dogs, so that they might not have dominion over them in the month of Shebat [i.e. February], and would ward off from their riches the vexatious and erring wandering of rebellious devils.

Now therefore these people possess no altar whatsoever and no place which hath been set apart by them [for worship] in the churches and monasteries and [other] habitations fo monks in which a wretched little idol similar to that which thou now seest hath not been placed and hidden; and this they worship, and unto it are performed their hateful, filthy and polluted works, and the grace of thy Lord hath removed itself far away from them. Now it was Cyril the priest of devils and the minister of fiends who was he who first of all adopted this sacrifice of rebellious devils through a certain woman who was a sorceress and who lived in Egypt and was called 'Kaki' which is interpreted 'evil sorceress.' And he delivered this pagan relgiion unto his sons and unto the sons of the sons of his accursed and abominable dogma and teaching, and behold, it took root and flourished in every country and province by means of these wretched little idols in which destructive and accursed and senseless and vile devils dwell. But take this idol and get thee into thy monastery in peace and now I will pray here that thou will pray here that there may be no rest unto the sons of its habitation from this place, for there hath been taken away from here the wretched little idol which is to them in the place of God the Governor of the universe.

Quote:

The seeming allusions to Marcion rather may be a reference to the emperor Marcian, of Chalcedonian fame, who in the mind of medieval who in the mind of medieval Nestorian writers may well have been regarded as supporting and completing the nefarious work of Cyril

and then the footnote:

The Grecizing ending is often omitted ; thus, for "Nestorius" both the forms ----- and ------ are well attested. ... If the -os ending is dropped, "Marcion" and "Marcian" would be spelled identically in Syriac as MRQYN.

http://books.google.com/books?id=-b3...ed=0CDIQ6AEwAQ

Let's not forget that Irenaeus's Proof of the Apostolic Preaching is directed to Marcian:

Quote:

Knowing, my beloved Marcianus, your desire to walk in godliness, which alone leads man to life eternal, I rejoice with you and make my prayer that you may preserve your faith entire and so be pleasing to God who made you. Would that it were possible for us to be always together, to help each other and to lighten the labour of our earthly life by continual discourse together on the things that profit ...

The text goes on to demonstrate how the only orthodoxy is faith in the Jewish scriptures etc.

spin · 03-31-2013, 01:19 AM

I'd go with Budge being responsible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

I don't know but Tatian is TTINOS in Theodore bar Koni, Ishodad of Merv etc. The addition of the W is odd in Bar Hebraeus. Maybe is shows that mistakes can happen this way. Might also show that the ION ending is a mistake for the Latin or Greek IAN suffix.

Is there anything remarkable about TTINOS for Tatianus?

Just checked a downloadable copy and there is certainly no waw to justify Budge. (MRQYNA)

stephan huller · 03-31-2013, 05:42 AM

spin,

I can't make the two texts line up. Are you sure these two manuscripts contain the same information?

spin · 03-31-2013, 05:31 PM

To be clear re Marcianus, the text I cited was another, referred to as the Chronicon ecclesiasticum, which talks of

Marcianus (see for example col. 176, 178, 180...) and the Syriac has MRQYNA. This is the emperor (died 457) who reigned after

Theodosius II and not the figure at the time of Justinian. I note that Budge uses the name Marcianus for the emperor (died 457), so you are still without sufficient evidence for Budge's use of "Marcion". (I can't find a copy of the Syriac text of the Chronography.)

03-30-2013, 11:49 PM	#1
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	The Latin Name Marcian is Rendered as 'Marcion' in Bar Hebraeus Marcian was Justinian's cousin and led a Roman assault in the eastern territories. I was looking at the parallel material in Bar Hebraeus and the Latin name appears as 'Marcion.' I wonder if that is significant. http://books.google.com/books?id=1cK...persia&f=false

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03-31-2013, 12:24 AM	#2
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Is that a transliteration problem? Per wikipedia, Marcian in Latin is Marcianus, in Greek Μαρκιανός. What is it is Syriac?

03-31-2013, 12:47 AM	#3
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I don't know but Tatian is TTINOS in Theodore bar Koni, Ishodad of Merv etc. The addition of the W is odd in Bar Hebraeus. Maybe is shows that mistakes can happen this way. Might also show that the ION ending is a mistake for the Latin or Greek IAN suffix.

03-31-2013, 05:42 AM	#6
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	spin, I can't make the two texts line up. Are you sure these two manuscripts contain the same information?

03-31-2013, 05:31 PM	#7
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	To be clear re Marcianus, the text I cited was another, referred to as the Chronicon ecclesiasticum, which talks of Marcianus (see for example col. 176, 178, 180...) and the Syriac has MRQYNA. This is the emperor (died 457) who reigned after Theodosius II and not the figure at the time of Justinian. I note that Budge uses the name Marcianus for the emperor (died 457), so you are still without sufficient evidence for Budge's use of "Marcion". (I can't find a copy of the Syriac text of the Chronography.)

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