Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Lord Umbra · 07-14-2005, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlj

I've noticed some of you say/imply that most and in some cases all Christians believe:
1)that the Bible is infallible, perfect, and/or written by God and is the sole source of the Word/Will of God
2)that they believe that they are constantly being guided, invidually by the Holy Ghost/Spirit
3)that most Christian sects believe that all members of most other (if not all other) Christian sects are going to hell

I personally feel that this is a gross misrepresentation of Christians that is a result of people taking the views of evagelical/conservative Christians, typically found in the American south, as the views of all Christians. I would like to see some kind of statistics or evidence to back up your claims of items 1-3. Thanks.

I don't know about anyone else, but I don't believe that all Xians are the same, nor do I assume they believe the same things. Which is why I posted my query in the first place.

I am SURE that not all Xians believe the same thing. And THAT is my dilemma. Why don't they?

How is anyone supposed to make heads or tails out of anything this "church" teaches/preaches, when they are prone to such disparity of thought and beliefs?

As a former Xian, when I was in the church, I was terribly confused as to what was "right" and what was "wrong", due to the vast differences between denominations and doctrines AND the Bible itself. And it was more than any simplistic "everyone is on their own road/at different levels of understanding" explanation could account for. You might get away with that excuse when dealing with "baby Xians", but then how do you explain the so-called "mature believers"?

In the end, this disparity led to my apostasy and atheism. NONE of it made sense.

However, I will concede that some people do err in thinking that ALL Xians possess a universal (catholic), monolithic faith/belief system. Which is untrue. They are as unique as snow flakes. (And just as random.) :wave:

Jedi Mind Trick · 07-14-2005, 12:35 PM

Lord Umbra, I had the same breakdown in and eventual loss of my faith due to doctrinal confusion and the bible's ambiguity.

Good post.

Jedi Mind Trick · 07-14-2005, 12:40 PM

dlj,
My apologies if my response was harsh. I don't mean to be a dick and I have no problems with the more liberal interpretations of the Christian god, rather, I invite it.

Doesn't change my non-belief, though.

dlj · 07-14-2005, 01:10 PM

Well I suppose I'll offer my 2 cents on the OP. Christianity has had somewhat of a unique quality among world religions in that is tends to care farth more about orthodoxy, or right beliefs, instead of orthopraxis, right practices, as most other religions have. Why is it this way? Well I'm sure there are books written on it and I will admit I really don't know but seem to remember that orthodoxy aided in centralizing the hierarchy and power scheme of the Roman Catholic church and later the Roman Empire. I mean think about it, typically someone who opposed their government's authority they were tortured. If you oppose these "Christian" leaders and rulers, you will be tortured forever! Once the authority of the church was challenged in the reformation, people suddenly started interpretting the Bible in new ways in different geographical locations and thus you get your bigger major protestant sects (Lutheran in Germany/Scandinavia, Anabaptist/Calvanist (which lead to Baptists and Prebyterians in France), Anglican and later Methodist Churches in England, all the various *insert nationality here* orthodox churches). I personally believe that lots of the denominations exisit due to particular events in particular geographic locations and not as much due to large doctrinal differences. Really, in my experience, it's only the evangelical churches, such as Southern Baptist, Pentecostal, and "nondenominational" churches that are all exactly the same, that really make a big deal of orthodoxy and condemning others. Unfortunately these are the groups that are growing in number fastest worldwide.

I think the New Testament is easily distilled into the 2 greatest commandments that Jesus gave for "what one must do to receive enternal life": Love God with all your heart, mind, and power and to love your neighbor as yourself. Also interesting to note is that when Jesus was asked who one's neighbor is, he responded with the very familiar story of the Good Samaritan. What makes this story striking at the time it was told but not now is that Samaritans were viewed as unclean AND as having the wrong beliefs! After telling the story, did Jesus say: and then the Samaritan proclaimed me as his personal lord and savior? Nope.

I suppose it begs the question of who or what God is (at least to me in this context). While I am poorly equiped and lack a desire to defend this view with the rigorous evidence and philosophical word play that this forum seems to require this view, I tend to think of God as being the greatest good and/or that inherit goodness within each person. I also like the idea that Paul Tillich presented that God is the depth of our being, although I'm still not sure what the heck he means by that. Anyways, I think loving God reorginizes the rest of your life (what some people call born again, but I think this term has too much stygma attatched to it) to desire to help others, it inspires altruism (commandment number 2). I think it also can establish kind of like a Christian moral relativism, which St. Augustine summed up as "Love God and do what you will." I have the feeling that I'm kind of rambling so I'll stop here and let any criticisms or flames come, haha.

hughmcjr · 07-14-2005, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Overcomer

After I logged off, it hit me that there was one other error I should have addressed. It's this one:

I'm afraid you have it backwards. The Apocrypha were ADDED by the Roman Catholic Church at the time of the Protestant Reformation. Why? Because the Roman Catholic Church wanted to justify some of its unBiblical beliefs, practices and teachings. The books of the Apocrypha contained some of them and they felt that, if they called those books God's Word, that would make it all right.

Of course, that didn't sit well with Luther and the other reformers!

And there were valid reasons for NOT including those books in the Bible originally. They didn't meet the high standards set for inclusion in the canon. For one thing, they contained known factual errors.

The books that are included in the Bible today were all written in the first century and were unoffically accepted as God's Word by the middle of the second. Some people mistakenly believe that Constantine decided which books should be in the Bible and which shouldn't. That isn't true because, as I said, they had already been settled upon two centuries before that. In Constantine's time, the church simply made the books "official". That's all.

I'm sorry that I don't have time to post some links for about the Biblical canon, the Apochrypha and the Protestant Reformation. I usually like to provide some for anybody who wants to explore what I've said further, but I've actually spent more time here this morning than I can afford.

However, I can suggest a good book that looks at the New Testament authorship and canonicity. It's An Introduction to the New Testament by Carson, Moo and Morris. It's a detailed look at the books, their dating and provenance, etc. Luke Johnson has a good one, too, that's a little more readable than the Introduction to the N.T. book. I'm sorry, but I can't think of one for the Old Testament off the top of my head.

Its not that the Apocrypha were added just as you say. The books were removed by Jewish council around 100 AD who were persecuting christians. The Catholic church put back what was originally there. The Jewish council removed it because it fullfilled prophecy and they were doing everything they could to disprove it and eradicate christianity. The protestants held onto what the Jewish council changed which is a contradiction. Why would you defer to the very people who were trying to disprove your beliefs and eradicate you? There were no valid reasons to remove them as you say because those books were in the bible originally as I said they were removed by Jews persecuting christians.

I cannot think of the name(s) right now but there have been well known fundamental scholars who researched the councils and the history of the reformation and converted to Catholicism when they found out the truth.

Jedi Mind Trick · 07-14-2005, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlj

I have the feeling that I'm kind of rambling so I'll stop here and let any criticisms or flames come, haha.

No, not at all…

I do take some issue with this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlj

…I will admit I really don't know but seem to remember that orthodoxy aided in centralizing the hierarchy and power scheme of the Roman Catholic church and later the Roman Empire.

The early Church was a bickering lot. There were many controversy’s over doctrine, not to mention the heretical ones.
About the fourth(?) century the Church was being influenced by and influencing Rome. Constantine wanted the Bishops to agree and come up with an Orthodox set of doctrines. The resultant orthodoxy was imposed upon the bishops and all heretics were snuffed out. The reformation was the beginning of the end for the strangle hold that was Roman dogma.

Now what brought on the reformation? The bible? Politics?
According to the reformer’s rhetoric it was an attempt to return to certain perceived truths that had been lost, namely, Sola Fidae, Sola Gratia, Sola Scriptura. It was a rejection of what had become apostolic tradition. Of course, unlike Calvin this was not in total for Luther.

So, on the on hand there was the perceived evil of tradition over scripture and conscience and on the other hand the Christianity has fragmented into around 20,000 different sects. Some divided along cultural and nationalistic lines, but when I refer to the division in Christianity I am not so much concerned about this. There are very significant doctrinal divisions among various camps… this is where I threw in the towel.

Many times these divisions are ignored or glossed over in the name of “unity of the faith,�? and I guess that I just couldn’t maintain the false show.

Jedi Mind Trick · 07-14-2005, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hughmcjr

The Jewish council removed it because it fullfilled prophecy and they were doing everything they could to disprove it and eradicate Christianity.

Can you give some examples from the Apocrypha that show something particularly scandalous regarding Judaism's relationship with Christianity?

Maybe start a thread? (I'm serious)

Jedi Mind Trick · 07-14-2005, 02:55 PM

A followup hughmcjr.

Your claim about th apocrypha seems specious to me. You said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by hughmcjr

The Catholic Church put back what was originally there. The Jewish council removed it because it fulfilled prophecy and they were doing everything they could to disprove it and eradicate Christianity.

Then why wasn't the Apocrypha officially canonized before 1500?

IOW, If it was such strong apologetic tool in the hands of the early church, then why did it have to wait to get the official stamp during the counter reformation?

hughmcjr · 07-14-2005, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Little John

A followup hughmcjr.

Your claim about th apocrypha seems specious to me. You said:

Then why wasn't the Apocrypha officially canonized before 1500?

IOW, If it was such strong apologetic tool in the hands of the early church, then why did it have to wait to get the official stamp during the counter reformation?

It is not bogus at all. I am not a biblical scholar, nor am I well versed. I do know that if you do the research you will find out what I have said is true.

The Apocrypha was "added" only because the jews had it in there for hundreds of years plus BC. around 100 AD they took it out..., WHY?, it has topics like purgatory, which the Jews removed because it and some other controversial topics in it fulfilled the scriptures with Christ's coming. Again the Jews were trying to squash early christians, so of course they removed them. This is why protestants at the time of the reformation were/are hypocrits for going back to that very Jewish council and supporting the very people trying to kill early christians.

Sven · 07-15-2005, 01:31 AM

Overcomer, could you please tell us why anyone should answer your posts?

Here we have your 10th to 12th post in total, every other one in a different thread. You never come back to look at the answers you got.

I'll tell you a little secret: The "D" in IIDB means "discussion". This involves people talking to one another, not throwing some garbage at them and then fleeing from the answers.

[please note that I (again!) copied this almost verbatim from here]

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07-14-2005, 12:35 PM	#52
Jedi Mind Trick Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Indianaplolis Posts: 4,998	Lord Umbra, I had the same breakdown in and eventual loss of my faith due to doctrinal confusion and the bible's ambiguity. Good post.

07-14-2005, 12:40 PM	#53
Jedi Mind Trick Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Indianaplolis Posts: 4,998	dlj, My apologies if my response was harsh. I don't mean to be a dick and I have no problems with the more liberal interpretations of the Christian god, rather, I invite it. Doesn't change my non-belief, though.

07-14-2005, 01:10 PM	#54
dlj Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: US Posts: 16	Well I suppose I'll offer my 2 cents on the OP. Christianity has had somewhat of a unique quality among world religions in that is tends to care farth more about orthodoxy, or right beliefs, instead of orthopraxis, right practices, as most other religions have. Why is it this way? Well I'm sure there are books written on it and I will admit I really don't know but seem to remember that orthodoxy aided in centralizing the hierarchy and power scheme of the Roman Catholic church and later the Roman Empire. I mean think about it, typically someone who opposed their government's authority they were tortured. If you oppose these "Christian" leaders and rulers, you will be tortured forever! Once the authority of the church was challenged in the reformation, people suddenly started interpretting the Bible in new ways in different geographical locations and thus you get your bigger major protestant sects (Lutheran in Germany/Scandinavia, Anabaptist/Calvanist (which lead to Baptists and Prebyterians in France), Anglican and later Methodist Churches in England, all the various insert nationality here orthodox churches). I personally believe that lots of the denominations exisit due to particular events in particular geographic locations and not as much due to large doctrinal differences. Really, in my experience, it's only the evangelical churches, such as Southern Baptist, Pentecostal, and "nondenominational" churches that are all exactly the same, that really make a big deal of orthodoxy and condemning others. Unfortunately these are the groups that are growing in number fastest worldwide. I think the New Testament is easily distilled into the 2 greatest commandments that Jesus gave for "what one must do to receive enternal life": Love God with all your heart, mind, and power and to love your neighbor as yourself. Also interesting to note is that when Jesus was asked who one's neighbor is, he responded with the very familiar story of the Good Samaritan. What makes this story striking at the time it was told but not now is that Samaritans were viewed as unclean AND as having the wrong beliefs! After telling the story, did Jesus say: and then the Samaritan proclaimed me as his personal lord and savior? Nope. I suppose it begs the question of who or what God is (at least to me in this context). While I am poorly equiped and lack a desire to defend this view with the rigorous evidence and philosophical word play that this forum seems to require this view, I tend to think of God as being the greatest good and/or that inherit goodness within each person. I also like the idea that Paul Tillich presented that God is the depth of our being, although I'm still not sure what the heck he means by that. Anyways, I think loving God reorginizes the rest of your life (what some people call born again, but I think this term has too much stygma attatched to it) to desire to help others, it inspires altruism (commandment number 2). I think it also can establish kind of like a Christian moral relativism, which St. Augustine summed up as "Love God and do what you will." I have the feeling that I'm kind of rambling so I'll stop here and let any criticisms or flames come, haha.

07-15-2005, 01:31 AM	#60
Sven Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: outraged about the stiffling of free speech here Posts: 10,987	Overcomer, could you please tell us why anyone should answer your posts? Here we have your 10th to 12th post in total, every other one in a different thread. You never come back to look at the answers you got. I'll tell you a little secret: The "D" in IIDB means "discussion". This involves people talking to one another, not throwing some garbage at them and then fleeing from the answers. [please note that I (again!) copied this almost verbatim from here]

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