Sarpedon

I note that you did not answer my question about why jesus didn't fulfill his own prophesy about his return. I repeat, jesus made a prophesy, he set a time limit for its fulfillment, the time limit has expired, the prophesy has not been fulfilled. Why? That obtuse and unrelated bible cutting and pasting you did does not answer this question. Jesus said he would be back before all the people who were alive at the time of the crucifiction died. He did not come back. Either A. Jesus lied or B. Jesus was mistaken. Either way, Jesus is not God.

And if you read my OP carefully, you will see that I have already answered your questions about non-self fulfilling prophesies. There are prophesies written after the fact, vague prophesies that can be fulfilled by any weird interpretation of fact or language, false prophesies, such as the one cited above, that are not fulfilled, and self-fulfilling prophesies, that through belief and persuasion, cause people to do something that will appear to fulfill the prophesy.

GermanHeretic

Yes, and I believe it is not true. In part because of what the bible says. It doesn't even get the genealogy of Jesus right.

Strange, my KJV bible says, my good deeds grant me salvation:
I recommened this article on this very site: PROPHECIES: IMAGINARY AND UNFULFILLED

The Witness

Interesting proposal JtB... when the prophecies come to pass, you will accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior. If they don't, I will renounce Christianity. My faith is strong... I accept your deal Jack.

The Witness

Obtuse and unrelated? Was it not YOU who referenced MATT 24? The scripture I pasted in fact DIRECTLY relates to Jesus saying that the generation that sees the abomination of desolation and the great tribulation, will also see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Now, tell me if I've got it right... We agree that Jesus HAS NOT returned, true? You say that the abomination of desolation and tribulation already happened and Jesus failed to return. I say these events are yet to happen, so of course Jesus hasn't returned. That's the whole point of the Israel Challenge. It may take several years to play out. I repeat, it may take several years to play out. So keep watching Israel as the years go by. I look forward to the future. And I don't just mean Sarpedon, I challenge everyone here to hang around for the long haul.



I don’t know if you’re serious, so I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt… You are not correct. Salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus alone. The scripture you refer to deals with rewards in heaven, not salvation. If you ARE a serious Christian, I must tell you in love that you are in a false doctrine.

The Evil One

You really need to read this.

Sarpedon

What I am saying is not that the tribulation has happened, I am saying that it hasn't happened, and will never happen. I say this because jesus himself, in the verses I quoted, said it would happen "before this generation has passed, all of this will be fulfilled." His prophesy says that before the last person of that generation dies, the tribulation will occur, and he will return. What I am saying is that generation he was referring to has passed, and neither the tribulation, nor the return has happened. Yet you, you who treat the scriptures as the word of god, ignore the fact that he set a time limit, and say that he hasn't returned because the tribulation hasn't happened. The tribulation is attendent on his return, his return does not depend on the tribulation. And he said that both would occur within the specified time. I'm sorry to repeat myself so many times, but I was not talking about the tribulation, I was talking about the time limit he himself set. Quit trying to change the scripture. He didn't say that he would come back after the tribulation, he said both the tribulation and his return would occur within the specified time.

So, answer the bloody question. Why didn't the tribulation and christs return happen when he said it would?

MAT 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

MAR 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

LUK 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

Weltall

Yeah, killing the prophecy because he said he would show up before some of the people who were alive at that time died. Those people have all died and your sky daddy hasn't shown up yet. You've lost the argument, just admit it.
And the events never will happen. The body of your 'savior' (if he ever existed, which is questionable) turned to dust millenia ago.
You sound like the Jehova's Witnesses. "The rapture will be coming soon, ok not this year but next year. Three years from now... five? Ten? Ok, we don't know when it's coming but it'll be before we die, really!" Try telling yourself that the 'challenge' will play out 'in a few years' when you're seventy years old. I'll bet good money that by that time, nothing will have happened. How much do you want to bet me, I'll give you hundred-to-one odds because I'm feeling lucky.
I challenge you to use thine brain which thy invisible friend supposedly gave thee. I would also politely request that you make use of the resources found on this board in an intelligent manner.
Yare yare. Go and read the username again, then do yourself a favor and check out the title of the board that you presume to use as a 'backup' for your challenge. We're mostly atheists and agnostics here, do the math.

NOGO

Jesus did not cause the sacrifices to stop it was the Romans that did it.

Jesus actually contrinuted to the sacrifices by sacrificing himself. At least that is what Hebrews says.

Jesus also said that the law would not be changed. So sacrfice was on as far as he was concerned.

Paul/Hebrews tell us that Christians were no longer under the law which is contrary to what Jesus said. Also when Paul went to Jerusalem he was forced by James to go to the temple and go through the purification ritual which involved offering a sacrifice for sins. This shiows that the church in Jerusalem still offered sacrifices after Jesus died. These are the same people who received the holy spirit which told them what to say and do.

So how we get to the idea that Jesus ended sacrifices?

gregor

Mr. Witness

You are aware of the thousands of xian "date setters" over the past two millenia? You know they were all wrong, don't you?

Please pick an end date for any events of the apocalpse and keep us updated as it nears and be prepared to recant your faith when it does not occur. I for one will convert if ANYTHING you predict comes to pass. However, the prediction must be specific as to date, event, and impact. It must be non-recurring, and the prediction could not have been made without insight from an omniscient diety.

Sarpedon

Absolutely. If the rapture occurs, I will judge that to be sufficient evidence that christianity is true, so I will definately fight on the proper side during the tribulation. You like to pretend that we are stubborn, and we believe whatever we believe in spite of the overwhelming evidence that you are privy to. The fact is we are not the stubborn ones. Its not that we believe nothing. We will believe ANYTHING. Just show us some evidence. No evidence, no belief. If something miraculous actually happened, each and every person here would believe. Our point is that all your miracles and supernatural occurances happened thousands of years ago in an unsubstantiated and anonymous book that also states that the world is flat, that bats are birds, that insects have four legs, the sun revolves around the earth, and that joseph had two different fathers. Cmon, cut us some slack. Our position is not unreasonable. If you say the rapture is imminent, so be it, I will believe it when I see it. According to the scriptures, that isn't too late, is it?