Freethought & Rationalism Archive

rhutchin · 03-06-2006, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Message to rhutchin: Regarding God's supposed actions, other that "the Bible is true because it judges itself as being true," what gives you the notion that God's actions necessarily indicate his motives? Surely you must know that actions need not necessarily indicate motives. What the Bible writers said might have been the result of 1) fraud, 2) innocent but inaccurate revelations, 3) inspiration from an evil God who was (an still might be) masquerading as a good God, or 4) inspiration from the God who is depicted in the Bible. How do you propose that we find out which is the case?

It would be quite natural, and quite easy, for an evil, deceptive God to portray himself exactly like the Bible describes God. In other words, he could easily heal people, raise people from the dead, predict the future, and promise a comfortable eternal life to believers.

Anything is technically possible. The only problem is that the Bible describes God as good, describes His actions as good, and describes that which He requires of others as good. Maybe His motives are not good, but we have no way of knowing it.

rhutchin · 03-06-2006, 03:43 PM

Quote:

rhutchin
Uncertain - the key word.

So, do you skeptics have any evidence for what happens to a person after death??

JPD
No-one has any at all - this is why it is not necessary to hold particular beliefs intended to prepare oneself for something for which no evidence exists. I can't waste my life pondering the inane crap that religions produce when a whole universe is there to be studied.

Yep. Sticking one's head in the sand is always an option.

rhutchin · 03-06-2006, 03:46 PM

Quote:

rhutchin
If God is real as described in the Bible, then He could have done everything that the Bible says that He did. One has to believe that the Bible is myth just as one has to believe that it is not myth. You have your beliefs; I have mine. You hope that there is no God and I have hope that there is.

JPD
Or he could be fooling everyone.

Actually I'm not concerned whether "God" exists or not - if the God that is described in the OT turns out to be "real" then I would not, in retrospect, have changed anything. The texts in support are not very wonderful and, should God turn out to exist, I will have a chat with him/her/it about why he/she/it felt it to be of satisfactory quality.

That should be interesting.

knotted paragon · 03-06-2006, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

OK. So all we need is a good, sound argument to show that the Bible is myth. Have you seen one?

LOL, no, all we need is a good, sound argument to show that the bible is any different than any other myth. Have you seen one?

Quote:

No problem. If you see no threat, then the Wager means mothing to you. I have not seen any person describe a threat from the Greek or Egyptian gods. Certainly those gods are not exciting people to go out and warn people. The same cannot be said for the Biblical god.

Yeah, priests of the ancient Canaanite thunder god are doing much better at the moment than Osiris' followers, what's your point? Both gods have provided equal evidence of their existence.

You are still trying to convince us you are levitating rhutchin. You continue to insist that we have to prove a negative. We are not the claimants in this discussion - you, and by extension Pascal, are the claimants. You claim god exists and will consign one's soul to eternal torment for finite crimes. Fine, that's your claim, provide evidence to support it. Don't ask others to prove your claim is invalid if it is unsupported in the first place. Unless and until you provide evidence to support the claim of eternal torment for finite crimes, it is unsupported speculation and represents no threat. To believe otherwise is irrational. You are not levitating, your left foot is on the ground.

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Go back and rework your argument and identify the threat.

The argument is the same, as well as the threat: consignment to oblivion.

Quote:

I had never heard that failure to worship Osiris would result in anything bad. However, let's assume that it did. If it were true that both Osiris and the Biblical god threatened eternal torment, then the Wager arrives at the same conclusion as it did when only the Biblical god was considered to threaten eternal torment. The conclusion is that one would seek to escape eternal torment either by proving that the threat was malarky or by belief.

If you fail to observe the ceremonies and rites listed in the Book of the Dead (the Papyrus of Ani), and fail to prepare your corporeal form for the journey into the afterlife, Osiris will weigh your soul on the tip of a feather, and if found wanting, consign it to oblivion.

P1. Wagering for Osiris superdominates wagering against Osiris.
P2. If Osiris exists, the result of wagering for Osiris is strictly better than the result of wagering against Osiris.
C. Rationality requires you to wager for Osiris.

You can't have it both ways rhutchin. If you can dismiss Osiris rationally, then anybody can dismiss the ancient Canaanite thunder god rationally. Osiris is included in the pantheon of some modern Pagans. He is described in ancient texts. He has provided the same amount of evidence of his existence as your ancient Canaanite thunder god YHWH.

It is irrational to claim that Osiris can be dismissed as a threat and YHWH cannot be dismissed as a threat.

Do not tell us again that we have to prove YHWH won't consign us to hell -- until you can come here and prove that the perils of the afterlife described in the Book of the Dead are false.

Quote:

So, do you skeptics have any evidence for what happens to a person after death??

Do you theists have any evidence for what happens to a person after death?

Dlx2 · 03-06-2006, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Maybe, but you still cannot tell a person what happens after they die. Even someone as dense as me can see the way you avoid that.

Your mind is a function of your brain. We know this because when you damage the brain, you damage the mind.

Your mind is the sum of your thoughts, experiences, etc.

Death involves a loss of brain function.

A loss of brain function leads to a loss of mind.

Thus, when you die, it's all over. Everything. You don't feel anything. You don't think anything. You don't even experience nothingness, because you no longer exist. All you are is a memory in the minds of those who survive you, although that really doesn't matter because your universe ends when you die.

What's left of you (which isn't much more than a chunk of dead meat) is either burned to ashes or it rots.

Sleep tight.

rhutchin · 03-06-2006, 05:58 PM

Quote:

rhutchin
Maybe, but you still cannot tell a person what happens after they die. Even someone as dense as me can see the way you avoid that.

Dlx2
Your mind is a function of your brain. We know this because when you damage the brain, you damage the mind.

Your mind is the sum of your thoughts, experiences, etc.

Death involves a loss of brain function.

A loss of brain function leads to a loss of mind.

Thus, when you die, it's all over. Everything. You don't feel anything. You don't think anything. You don't even experience nothingness, because you no longer exist. All you are is a memory in the minds of those who survive you, although that really doesn't matter because your universe ends when you die.

What's left of you (which isn't much more than a chunk of dead meat) is either burned to ashes or it rots.

Sleep tight.

Sounds like a nice myth. I bet you sincerely believe it. Some guys in the first century recorded things they thought were true and some people call that myth also. Such is life.

knotted paragon · 03-06-2006, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Such is life.

Such is death. Given the great number of people who have died and stayed dead - it is highly probable that death is the end of one's existence. You die, you rot, and you're gone.

rhutchin · 03-07-2006, 03:55 AM

Quote:

rhutchin
Such is life.

knotted paragon
Such is death. Given the great number of people who have died and stayed dead - it is highly probable that death is the end of one's existence. You die, you rot, and you're gone.

Highly probable; an apt descriptor. We both agree that death is the end of one's physical body. It dies; it rots; it is gone. One must have faith that there is nothing else. You are a man of great faith equal to those who, by faith, believe otherwise.

JPD · 03-07-2006, 04:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Yep. Sticking one's head in the sand is always an option.

Actually there could be a lot to be said for it - one would not be exposed to the wonders of Chritian logic for a start. But in any case this doesn't fall under sticking one's head in the sand since your entire premise rests on pure fantasy.

JPD · 03-07-2006, 04:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Highly probable; an apt descriptor. We both agree that death is the end of one's physical body. It dies; it rots; it is gone. One must have faith that there is nothing else. You are a man of great faith equal to those who, by faith, believe otherwise.

It would be intersting to see you conduct this discussion with someone who has severe amnesia.

nb. Calvin's possible objections.

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