inquisitive01

See post #95 (page 10), which I believe was a reply to another post of yours.

Gullwind

But how does someone placing themselves in a condition of slavery justify the existance of slavery in general, in which most slaves did NOT choose to be there? That is what I'm asking.

You seem to be hand-waving away the fact that the bible ALLOWS slaves to be bought and sold apparently because a few chose to become slaves as a last resort.

Isn't the fact that a culture would allow that institution to exist at all morally reprehensible?



Another question I thought of this morning. Do the anti-slavery laws passed in the U.S. constitute a violation of church-state separation, since they prohibit a condition that is allowed in the bible? Could an argument be made that the right to own slaves is a religious one?

budgie

Yes, I saw those parts about the "willing" slaves due to circumstances. That seems to me to be a disingenuous attempt to condone slavery. The point that people are arguing, and I could be wrong (but not lately), is that, under current social conditions, slavery is not a good thing; but that in the past, oh, about 2000 years ago, slavery was actively sought after, even at the behest of an almighty God. The question then boils down to the morality of God vs the morality of man (maybe not versus, more like - is different from).

Have humans, at least in this instance, taken the moral high ground? It does not matter if some people fall into slavery - then or now - the point is that human laws have been passed that consider slavery to be a reprehensible institution and that God does not find it such a bad thing.

There are several forms of slavery as defined by iAbolish of which the debt bondage you talk about involves upwards of 20 million people today.

btw - it's Dr. Jim to you

-jim

Angrillori

And, doesn't that mean Inq. thinks the U.S. is fricking evil since we don't allow people to sell themselves into slavery as a last resort? I mean, come on, what is wrong with us! :banghead:

It appears to be Inq's position that:

Slavery is good, because some people found themselves with no option but to sell themselves into it.

Besides the fact that this is entirely irrelevant to whether slavery as an institution actually IS good, the only valid logical deduction you can draw from Inq.'s position is that the US, or any other Slavery-is-illegal country, is in fact evil for not allowing this institution to be available for those who have no other recourse and are dying en-masse due to lack of the ability to sell themselves into slavery.

Personally, I think that position is rather abhorrent, and would like to see the stats on "number of people who die because they can't sell themselves into slavery."

Of course,
#1) Inq. has shown a bit of reluctance to offer up evidence to support his assertions. (Sp. re: Evolution and re: Atheists disbelieve because they want to sin more.)
and,
#2) As we can't seem to repeat enough for Inq.:

The mere fact that some people sold themselves into slavery does NOT make slavery a good thing.

Repeat that a million times, Inq.

We're not ignoring the fact that some people saw no alternative but to sell themselves into slavery. That doesn't make slavery good no matter how many times you repeat it.

As beautifully pointed out in the last post:

By American modern standards of morality, slavery is an evil to be stopped.
By god's moral standards, slavery is ok, and he has granted permission to engage therein.

When you ask:
"Hey American Government, can I buy slaves?"
The answer is: "No."

When you ask:
"Hey God, can I buy slaves?"
The answer is: "Yes."

Who has the moral high ground, hmmm?

inquisitive01

Angrillori, please show me where I said "slavery
is a good thing." Hurry now, hurry!

Gullwind

Instead of nit-picking one line, how about actually explaining why it is justified because a small percentage of slaves became so willingly?

You certainly have not condemned it as immoral, regardless of how or why anyone became a slave.

Angrillori

Hmm. How can I express this feeling?

Oh yeah:

:banghead:


Gullwind said it best:
Dude. IQ01, this thread and others have been nothing more than attempts to justify slavery to us.

You've offered nothing substantive yet. Your current point seems to be, and heck, we won't even use your intent, we'll water it down, just to make you feel better: slavery is 'justified' because some people found themselves forced to sell themselves into it by circumstance.

As with your assertion that unbelievers don't believe because they want to sin more, or more conveniently, we've offered chance upon chance to explain, or support your position. To which you've offered pithy one-liners, evasions, dodges, obfuscations, and avoidances, but, noticeably absent were:
support,
evidence,
valid reasoning, and
sound arguments.

It's put up or shut up time, for crying out loud. Offer us some:
support,
evidence,
valid reasoning, and
sound arguments,
or admit you're full of bunk and that your god-concept is morally unsupportable.

I'll entertain either, but so far you've offered neither.

inquisitive01

I'm not here to entertain you, Angrillori. You've already made up your mind, so no argument I offer you is going to get anywhere. If the arguments to this point (regarding the abuse of slavery, which is what you are referring to, vs. the willingness of those who became slaves out of desperation) are insufficient for you, then it's your choice to feel that way. You CAN move on if you disagree, CAN'T YOU?

Unfortunately, you mix your surface-read ("skimmed" might be how you would put it based on recent posts in recent threads) "facts" with your opinion, which is apparently more convenient for you personally, huh. :thumbs:

inquisitive01

A small percentage? Where are your stats regarding this "small percentage" (you do have those stats, don't you?)?

Angrillori

Oh well. You are doing a good job anyways

Patently untrue. In the face of evidence, valid arguments, and support, I am perfectly willing to change my mind. In fact, there have been threads even within the last week, where, when evidence was presented which showed my argument to be invalid I changed my mind.

Now, given that, in this thread the only poster who seems unwilling to change his mind in the face of contrary evidence is, well, you, I think you should heed the old adage concerning eyes, planks, and specks. I think, if you look hard enough, you'll find that in your holy book.

If you can't be bothered to look, you may have heard another one about glass houses and hurling rocks.

What thread have you been reading? What bible have you been reading?

Beating slaves near unto death as long as they can regain their feet in two days isn't abuse of slaves according to god! He says that's OK!!! Willing slaves on to your children, he says that's OK too!!! Taking slaves in battle? OK!! Buying and selling slaves from other countries? OK!! Treating non-Israelite slaves ruthlessly? OK!!!

This thread was not about slaves who willing sold themselves. it became about slavery, as an institution which god approved of ("Can we have slaves, God?" God: "Yes.")

Your SOLE defense lately has been that slavery is OK because some people sold themselves into it because they saw no other alternative. This is not a valid argument to justify the morality of slavery. some people kill themselves willingly, therefore is murder justified? Of course not. Neither then is slavery blanket justified, because some sold themselves into it when circumstances forced them to.

Not insufficient for me, just insufficient.

Yes, I could. But to let you stay and post about how wonderful you think slavery is, is repugnant to me, and, as I said, you do entertain me. If I'm being entertained, why would I want to leave?


Surface read? Whoah. Is there another way to read:

"From these nations you may buy slaves."

You know what they call reading into the bible, right? Yeah, a sin. Jesus wasn't too kind-worded regarding those who add jots and tittles to the word of god. So, were I you, or one who believed in such, I would probably avoid adding too many of my own words to the bible, and stick with what it actually says. Just a bit of advice.

And, if you're going to bring the old convenience canard up, have you managed to find any evidence or valid support for your assertion that we don't believe in order to sin more, or more conveniently?

Didn't think so.

Does that mean you're going to change your mind and admit your error?

Yeah. Didn't think so on that one either.