Freethought & Rationalism Archive

arnoldo · 02-02-2008, 05:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

It's amazing that people will reject the obvious even when it is staring them in the face. Israel is restored just as predicted. The nations are trying to take this land from them as predicted. The Global Community is uniting against Israel as foretold. And yet the naysayers say it is not so! Now I understand why those in the desert were not convinced of God and His power even though He performed great miracles before them. Now I understand why there were many who rejected Jesus even though He did what He did to prove Himself. And finally I now understand why they reject the Word even though it is backed by proven prophecies.....the unbelievers will not be convinced.....because they do not want to be. :wave:

This generation is the same as those people who scoffed at Yeshua when he was on the cross. They cried "If you are the Son of God come down from the cross" IOW, prove it. Guess what, he didn't have anything to prove a single thing to those people, it is all self-evident. Israel exists today only due to the Abrahamic covenant.

Johnny Skeptic · 02-02-2008, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

This generation is the same as those people who scoffed at Yeshua when he was on the cross. They cried "If you are the Son of God come down from the cross" IOW, prove it. Guess what, he didn't have anything to prove a single thing to those people, it is all self-evident. Israel exists today only due to the Abrahamic covenant.

Nope, if a God exists, he is probably not the God of the Bible. I reasonably proved that in a thread at http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=235279 at the GRD Forum. If you wish to embarrass yourself, please make posts in that thread.

Johnny Skeptic · 02-02-2008, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

This generation is the same as those people who scoffed at Yeshua when he was on the cross. They cried "If you are the Son of God come down from the cross" IOW, prove it. Guess what, he didn't have anything to prove a single thing to those people, it is all self-evident. Israel exists today only due to the Abrahamic covenant.

Nope, if a God exists, he is probably not the God of the Bible. I reasonably proved that in a thread at http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=235279 at the GRD Forum. If you wish to embarrass yourself, please make posts in that thread.

Anyone who has just a modest amount of common sense knows that if Micah had predicted that the messiah would rule a heavenly kingdom instead of an earthly kingdom as the Jews were misled by God to believe, and that the messiah would heal people, and that the messiah would be crucified, buried, and rise from the dead after three days, and the Pontius Pilate would become the Roman Governor of Palestine, a lot more Jews would have accepted Jesus. If that would not have been the case, please tell us why it would not have been the case. Are you really going to claim that God would not be able to convince everyone to believe that he can predict the future?

Your argument that God used prophecy to strengthen the faith of the Jews after the fact does not work. No Jew who lived during Ezekiel's time saw the Tyre prophecy fulfilled, nor did any Jew for several more generations. As a result, surely some Jews gave up Judaism, or wondered why God did not quickly defeat all of Tyre. When Alexander finally defeated Tyre, some Jews must have wondered why Ezekiel did not mention Alexander, and some of them must have given up Judaism because of that.

The bottom line is this: If God loved the Jews, and wanted to protect them from being harmed by their human enemies, he would also have wanted to protect them from being killed by storms and parasites. With parasites alone, God has killed more people than all of the wars in history. Such being the case, God was far more dangerous to the Jews than all of their enemies put together.

If Jewish prophets had predicted when and where natural disasters would occur, how many of them would have been persecuted or killed? Answer, none. If a God exists, it is obvious that he does not want people to believe that he can predict the future.

Jayrok · 02-02-2008, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Israel exists today only due to the Abrahamic covenant.

I'd say it has more to do with the fact that the USA has armed them, trained them, and backed them from the beginning. It has more to do with the US-Israeli covenant than anything abraham did. Iran, et al, knows if they attack Israel they'll get some missiles with nasty ingredients fired up their collective asses.

Johnny Skeptic · 02-02-2008, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Israel exists today only due to the Abrahamic covenant.

But that is exactly what I have been telling you all along. I have been telling you that if Abraham falsely believed that God made a land promise to him and his descendants, all that it would have taken to self-fulfill the Partition of Palestine would have been the belief that the prophecy was true, and enough military power to make it come true. If the Koran said that a temple would be built in Mecca, and a temple was built in Mecca, would you call that a fulfillement of a true prophecy, or the fulfillment of a self-fulfilled prophecy.

No intelligent case can be made that the God of the Bible is unable to convince people that he is able to predict the future. If Micah had predicted that the messiah would rule a heavenly kingdom instead of an earthly kingdom as the Jews were misled by God to believe, and that the messiah would heal people, and that the messiah would be crucified, buried, and rise from the dead after three days, and the Pontius Pilate would become the Roman Governor of Palestine, a lot more Jews would have accepted Jesus. If that would not have been the case, please tell us why it would not have been the case. Are you really going to claim that God would not be able to convince everyone to believe that he can predict the future?

arnoldo · 02-02-2008, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Israel exists today only due to the Abrahamic covenant.

But that is exactly what I have been telling you all along. I have been telling you that if Abraham falsely believed that God made a land promise to him and his descendants, all that it would have taken to self-fulfill the Partition of Palestine would have been the belief that the prophecy was true, and enough military power to make it come true. If the Koran said that a temple would be built in Mecca, and a temple was built in Mecca, would you call that a fulfillement of a true prophecy, or the fulfillment of a self-fulfilled prophecy.

No intelligent case can be made that the God of the Bible is unable to convince people that he is able to predict the future. If Micah had predicted that the messiah would rule a heavenly kingdom instead of an earthly kingdom as the Jews were misled by God to believe, and that the messiah would heal people, and that the messiah would be crucified, buried, and rise from the dead after three days, and the Pontius Pilate would become the Roman Governor of Palestine, a lot more Jews would have accepted Jesus. If that would not have been the case, please tell us why it would not have been the case. Are you really going to claim that God would not be able to convince everyone to believe that he can predict the future?

Jesus spoke in parables and dark sayings.

Quote:

Proverbs 1:6 To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings
Psalms 49:4 I will incline mine ear to a parable: I will open my dark saying upon the harp.
Psalms 78:2 I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old

Quote:

Mat 13: 10The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?"

11He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13This is why I speak to them in parables:
"Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand. 14In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
" 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15For this people's heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.' 16But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.

And besides that wouldn't the course of history be altered simply by putting the name Pointus Pilate or Alexander the Great in the bible. :wave:
Instead Ezekiel put in Alexander's actions,ie, he will throw the tyre into the sea. Daniel also describes Alexander the Great's actions as follows:

Quote:

The ram which you saw having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. And the rough goat is the king of Greece: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king." [Daniel 8:5, 20,21; the first king was Alexander]

Johnny Skeptic · 02-02-2008, 08:23 PM

Message to arnoldo: Since the God of the Bible probably does not exist, I suggest that we limit our discussions to my thread at http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=235279 at the GRD Forum. Non-existent Gods do not predict the future.

angelo · 02-03-2008, 02:34 AM

If god wanted to prove his existence to mankind. Why did he not create the word ''God'' on the moon in ten mile long walls for example. knowing full well that only modern man on the invention of the telescope would be able to see it. Forums such as this would not be arguing the existence or otherwise of his existence. It would be a proven fact.
So the conclusion is that he either does not exist. Or he cannot foretell the future.

Johnny Skeptic · 02-03-2008, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Micah 5:2 says "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." If the Jews believed that the messiah would become ruler of Israel in this life, which I believe that they did, God deceived them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Yeshua was born in Bethlehem exactly as prophesied by Micah 5:2.

If Micah had predicted that the messiah would rule a heavenly kingdom instead of an earthly kingdom, and that the messiah would heal people, and that the messiah would be crucified, buried, and rise from the dead in three days, and that Pontius Pilate would become the Roman Governor of Palestine, and that the magi would visit Herod, would more Jews have accepted Jesus? If not, why not?

Is it your position that God is not able to convince everyone that he is able to predict the future?

Johnny Skeptic · 02-03-2008, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Wouldn't the course of history be altered simply by putting the name Pointus Pilate or Alexander the Great in the Bible?

That is not the issue. Micah 5:2 says "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." If the Jews believed that the messiah would become ruler of Israel in this life, which I believe that they did, God deceived them. If Micah had predicted that the messiah would rule a heavenly kingdom instead of an earthly kingdom, and that the messiah would heal people, and that the messiah would be crucified, buried, and rise from the dead in three days, and that Pontius Pilate would become the Roman Governor of Palestine, and that the magi would visit Herod, would more Jews have accepted Jesus? If not, why not?

Is it your position that God is not able to convince everyone that he is able to predict the future?

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02-02-2008, 08:23 PM	#967
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	Message to arnoldo: Since the God of the Bible probably does not exist, I suggest that we limit our discussions to my thread at http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=235279 at the GRD Forum. Non-existent Gods do not predict the future.

02-03-2008, 02:34 AM	#968
angelo Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 5,706	If god wanted to prove his existence to mankind. Why did he not create the word ''God'' on the moon in ten mile long walls for example. knowing full well that only modern man on the invention of the telescope would be able to see it. Forums such as this would not be arguing the existence or otherwise of his existence. It would be a proven fact. So the conclusion is that he either does not exist. Or he cannot foretell the future.

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