Danton

I am researching the origins of Judaism and would like your views on the following problem:-

Is Judaism a culture with a religious component or

Is it a religion that has acquired a culture over time.

MrFrosty

Moved to BCH

Chris Weimer

Both.

Clouseau

Judaism was a culture with a religious basis. It was intended to show how right attitude to the deity transformed cultural relationships, if faithfully maintained. This culture was originally expressed in a theocratic yet democratic political state (Israel) that became theocratic and monarchical, and soon thereafter split into two. Only the smaller segment (Judea) remained orthodox, and despite successive invasions and dispersion to many parts of the known world, occupation of the homeland, and internal divisions, its orthodoxy and cultural identity were very substantially maintained.

The state was totally destroyed in the 2nd century CE, as was the Jerusalem Temple, the religious centre. However, Judaism continued to follow the Mosaic Law and expect the coming of a Messiah, and these factors maintained both cultural unity and cultural separation in many countries.

Modern Judaism has an added social and religious culture, or maybe cultures, that owe very little to the Israelites of Moses' day (synagogues and rabbis were unknown then), and also often has many religious rules that Moses did not give that modify culture quite markedly; so it is true that Judaism has acquired a culture, though of course it has also lost one.

Fortuna

Danton,

My first question would be, "which Judaism ?". Still, I would have to say that overall the answer is your first, that it is a culture with a religious component.
Unfortunately, I'm got a pressing engagement here, so I'm gonna give you the quick nickel tour of the various Judaisms. I'll return and elaborate if necessary. Let's go from most recent to most ancient.

- Rabinnical (modern) Judaism. It begins just after the destruction of the temple and much of Judea during the Roman-Jewish war of 65-70. Tradition cliams it's starting point at the council of Jamnia circa 90 CE. At this point the Torah and Neviim (Prophets) texts already existed and are adapted. It is either here or soon afterward that the Ketuvim (the wisdom literature, which includes Daniel) is codified. Work begins (or is planned at this point) on assembling survivng records and commentaries (from Jerusalem, Judea) on the Talmudic literature. A parallel effeort begins on the Babylonian Talmudic lit. Jamnia seems to really be just the beginning of the process. But everything (the holidays and observances) are rooted in existing tradition from the 2nd temple period. (I did not appreciate the "no connection to the past" implication from above. BS !)

- Second temple Judaism - Started with Ezra just after the return from the Babylonian exile up till the Roman-Jewish war. After the return from the exile, Ezra and the scribes in Babylon assemble the Torah and accoording to tradition, Eara reads it publicly to the people in the newly populated Jerusalem. This is the first ever historical mention of the Torah. sometime later in this period the Neviim is codified. The "second" temple is built. Although the culture and its religion are now centralized, this period is diverse, with many factions taking power and losing it. By the time of Jesus, there are 3 major factions. The "Torah only" Sadduccees and the Pharisees. Also the Essenes, who are separatists.( Josephus describes these and adds the Zealots and Sciarii, who ultimately start the rebellion contra Rome. The wisdom literature is written during this period but not codified.

- Babylonian exile (just a note, it goes here).

- Josiah's Yahwehist "revival", or First temple revival. According to tradition, Josiah (or one of his priests) "discovers" (or creates, unknown) the book of the seat of Mosche in the temple. Josiah institutes Yahweism as the national religion and proceeds to destroy the Asherah groves and forbids all other forms of worship. Up to this time, it appears the Yahweh/Asherah and perhaps other forms of worship were prevalent.

- Prior to this, the picture is fuzzy to say the least. It loosk like there are 2 entities, Judah and Israel. The problem is that the literature and the archeology do not agree. The literature tells of the united monarchies of Saul, David, Solomon in Judea, but the archeology show that Israel was far more advanced and powerful. (See "The bible Unearthed")

What really went on during this time is all speculation. The only thing that seems certain is that it didn't happen the way the Bible says it did. Furhter, no - archeolgy has ever found this "first temple" nor is there for certain a single artifact from it. (a possible exception is a gold pomegranite, but lately that is said to be a fake).

Sorry for the quick reply, but I've gotta go...We will catch up tomorrow.

Fortuna
Further, it looks like the story of Joshua is really a metaphor for Josiah. The only time in history when all the cities in joshua book exist and are simultaneously inhabited is during the reign of Josiah.

3DJay

Technically, it's just a religion.

There are Ashkenazi Jews, Sephardi Jews, Mizrahi Jews, Ethiopian Jews, etc. All of whom, had somewhat different cultures, languages, histories. Even different denominations of Judaism, while sharing the same religion, have differing cultural habits.

Even back to its origins, it was just a religion. Most likely, either picked up by a culturally diverse group of nomads (Apiru), who settled in Canaan, or developed as a sub-religion within the Canaanite society itself.


Peace

Amedeo

The first question you should ask is whether Judaism is promordial or is derived [has orgins].

The second question is interwoven with the first: Does Judaism -- a culture or ethnic group with biological, religious, and linguistic components -- have one or more origins.

I have many posts in these matters, but I will not refer to them , as they have been virtually put in the "Index of Discredited Books."

You'll receive plenty of orthodox assistance. If you are in the search of truth, you'll have to find it on your own. Meanwhile, you may be interested in joining this conversation:

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...00#post4469600